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Project Sunrise/PS2 Tube Rolling Thread (and maybe even Project Horizon and Project Ember) - Page 24

post #346 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by roamling View Post
 

 

Yes, thats what I thought. I decided to get two very good tubes that I really wanted and thats it. So I got the Telefunken E88CC / 6922 (Ulm 1968) and the 1955 MULLARD ECC82. So I consider that sufficient and wont get any other tubes, for now...

Looks like you're set.  I consider the TF E88CC my best tube.  I expect it also my most valuable, however, I don't plan on selling it.  I got it at an excellent price from a friend who bought a dozen of them.

post #347 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinook9 View Post
 

6N6P is a good one for the Sunrise.  I have never heard or even read about the 6N27P but I'd be interested in what you think.  According to my reference document, the logo indicates it is an older model from the Reflector plant, however, I'm not sure how accurate my source is.  Presently there are some of these tubes on eBay with what is reported to be the newer Reflector logo and these are 1969 vintage. Can you read the year on it?

I think the number on it is 76 so it was made in 1976? The 6n27p is well regarded as a great tube using with the EHHA which run tube at plate voltage at about 28V, itt must work great in Sunrise.

post #348 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by proid View Post
 

I think the number on it is 76 so it was made in 1976? The 6n27p is well regarded as a great tube using with the EHHA which run tube at plate voltage at about 28V, itt must work great in Sunrise.

1977 should be a good tube.  My experience with Russian tubes is that anything earlier than mid 80s is good.  I'm not sure the really early ones are better.  I have a 1963 6N23P and I'm not impressed by it at all.  Its a good tube but not better than some later models I have.

post #349 of 356

Haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread yet but wanted to start documenting some of my experience with tubes in hopes that others may more easily decide which is right for them.

 

Source: PC / Laptop / Android - Spotify 320kbps - some 24bit FLAC

DAC: Ifi Nano iDSD (smooth, musical, non fatiguing)

AMP: Project Sunrise III

Headphones: Hifiman He-4  These are detailed headphones that are sensitive to alteration of the higher frequencies (tend to get fatiguing with the wrong stack)

 

Reference Music:  Muddy waters - The Folk Singer, Various Chesky reference samples, Lamb of God - Wrath,  Alt-J, Some Dubstep / etc,  MTV Unplugged albums (nirvana),  Roger Waters live, Marlinsky Orchestral recordings (mixed)

 

Review Format: Tube (price if I know) - Rating (enjoyment) - Short Description

 

Shuguang 12au7 - 5/10 - Relatively flat sounding - not overly musical or enjoyable.  Sound is overall a bit thin / weak and fatiguing

 

J/J 12au7 - 5/10 Very aggressive sound - extremely fatiguing - I did not enjoy this tube  Tried it three times and took it out almost immediately.

 

Groove Tube 12au7- 6/10 Punchy and detailed, very refined sound with loads of separation.  Vocals sounded a little artificial and the sound was fatiguing over long periods.  Bass was present but not as powerful as I'd like.

 

International Service Master ($15) 12au7 7/10 - I bought this tube on a recommendation.  It was the fourth tube I tried with the amp and I liked it best of the bunch.  It was very clear and clean...but still fatiguing. It has a special liquid/sparkly character but Something about the mid-highs just wasn't quite right. Couldn't manage to listen to it at length.

 

RCA (tried a few)

 

"Clear Top" 12au7 ($9) - 8/10 - Clean and clear - exceptionally well balanced.  Feels like a good reference.  Not especially "fun" or special, but a solid performer.  This tube almost had a "high definition" sound to me and was incredible with some of the classical performances - Not overly aggressive - just smooth enough for extended listening but not the best tube for vocals.  Really high quality, especially considering the price. 

 

"Black Plate" 12au7 ($7) - 7.5/10 Syrupy and smooth tube.  Left it in the amp to warm up for a few hours and the bass became a little muddy and soft in the low end.  I had a few so I tried another to the same effect.  Really just a little too uncontrolled in the low end and consequently thin up top with very full / busy music (Rock/Metal esp) - This is my favorite for minimalist vocal / acoustic recordings as it is  the most relaxed and least sibilant tube I've tested.  It's definitely "dark" though and the coloration doesn't always work when surfing a broad assortment of music.

 

12AV7 unknown RCA ($2 from a swap fest) - 8.5/10 online I've read that these tubes are generally noisy and generally not very musical so I knew it was a risk.  To me this is the warmest tube of the bunch.  Vocals are especially emphasized and sound rich soft - just a hint of graininess though.  It isn't the most detailed, but the character it imparts is very nice and midcentric. This was the best tube by far for "Lamb of God" and other such heavy metal. Bass is very tight and controlled.  Really enjoyed this tube though I am sure it is technically not the top performer.   

 

These were my impressions, I'll try to add some more detail later.

 

Thanks all-

Rob


Edited by RobxMcCarthy - 6/20/14 at 5:23am
post #350 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobxMcCarthy View Post
 

J/J 12au7 - 5/10 Very aggressive sound - extremely fatiguing - I did not enjoy this tube  Tried it three times and took it out almost immediately.

 

 

I had the same Impression with the J/J 12AU7, it was included with my Project Sunrise III and i did not like the tube at all. The sound was very aggressive, almost un-tube like. It is very microphonic as well. I am using a NOS 1955 12AU7 Mullard tube at the moment, very expensive but very musical as well

post #351 of 356

I'm going back and forth between the three RCA tubes now.    If only I could have the smoothness of the Black plate with the taught bass and midrange warmth of the 12aV7...  Kills me.

I read somewhere in this thread that a user was unable to tell the difference between extremely expensive tubes and the cheapest cheap ones that they had.  Sometimes I worry that there isn't much difference and that it's all in my head.   I may run the output back into my computer to run some tests... wonder how I'd go about that.

post #352 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobxMcCarthy View Post
 

I'm going back and forth between the three RCA tubes now.    If only I could have the smoothness of the Black plate with the taught bass and midrange warmth of the 12aV7...  Kills me.

I read somewhere in this thread that a user was unable to tell the difference between extremely expensive tubes and the cheapest cheap ones that they had.  Sometimes I worry that there isn't much difference and that it's all in my head.   I may run the output back into my computer to run some tests... wonder how I'd go about that.

 

Dont worry, its what you think is right is the best choice. Pick the tube you like and that sounds best to your ears. Audio is a highly subjective hobby and some like gear others dont like at all. Its like picking a Hotel or B&B that has good revievs on Tripadvisor but when you get there you have different preferences whats important to you and you might like it less. The other thing is that Audio is not just about the sound but also the perception of the gear (looks, functions etc).

 

My Mullard 1955 for example, I just did not buy that because i thought it sounds good (or has a distinct sound signature) but also because I like old things and I just thought it would be nice have somthing like this very rare tube. The sound is not 10 times better than a normal 10$ tube but i can clearly tell the difference between a J&J and the Mullard. And some 5$ tube might even sound better to your ears, who knows...


Edited by roamling - 6/22/14 at 4:36am
post #353 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobxMcCarthy View Post
 

I'm going back and forth between the three RCA tubes now.    If only I could have the smoothness of the Black plate with the taught bass and midrange warmth of the 12aV7...  Kills me.

I read somewhere in this thread that a user was unable to tell the difference between extremely expensive tubes and the cheapest cheap ones that they had.  Sometimes I worry that there isn't much difference and that it's all in my head.   I may run the output back into my computer to run some tests... wonder how I'd go about that.


When comparing tubes, try to equalize the sound power level before making the comparison.  You probably know that changing volume makes a significant difference in perception so it just makes sense to compare tubes at the same volume. 

post #354 of 356

So, I hear you on the objective analysis.

 

Here is a RTA spectrum analysis the RCA 12av7 (color) and the "Blackplate" 12au7 (black)

 

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/6XXRcpX.png[/IMG]

 

They appear to be identical - not sure if the results are accurate though.  Will have to play around more later.

post #355 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by roamling View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobxMcCarthy View Post
 

I'm going back and forth between the three RCA tubes now.    If only I could have the smoothness of the Black plate with the taught bass and midrange warmth of the 12aV7...  Kills me.

I read somewhere in this thread that a user was unable to tell the difference between extremely expensive tubes and the cheapest cheap ones that they had.  Sometimes I worry that there isn't much difference and that it's all in my head.   I may run the output back into my computer to run some tests... wonder how I'd go about that.

 

Dont worry, its what you think is right is the best choice. Pick the tube you like and that sounds best to your ears. Audio is a highly subjective hobby and some like gear others dont like at all. Its like picking a Hotel or B&B that has good revievs on Tripadvisor but when you get there you have different preferences whats important to you and you might like it less. The other thing is that Audio is not just about the sound but also the perception of the gear (looks, functions etc).

 

My Mullard 1955 for example, I just did not buy that because i thought it sounds good (or has a distinct sound signature) but also because I like old things and I just thought it would be nice have somthing like this very rare tube. The sound is not 10 times better than a normal 10$ tube but i can clearly tell the difference between a J&J and the Mullard. And some 5$ tube might even sound better to your ears, who knows...

I agree, I roll tubes sometimes just to get a different flavor out of the amp or to match the sound output to different cans, great hobby and thats why tubes can be enjoyable 

post #356 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobxMcCarthy View Post

So, I hear you on the objective analysis.

Here is a RTA spectrum analysis the RCA 12av7 (color) and the "Blackplate" 12au7 (black)

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/6XXRcpX.png[/IMG]

They appear to be identical - not sure if the results are accurate though.  Will have to play around more later.

I realized after posting this that i was only testing the amp in an extremely light load state. I will try to get some graphs of this jobber loaded up.
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