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post #46 of 67

Chris, I wish you'd escort your way back in and let me know what issues you feel there are with Yulong.  Haven't heard to many negatives on the newer version of the D100, at least not with the Denons.  I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say.  Thanks.

post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by billerb1 View Post

I have the Denon D5000's and am considering an upgrade from my Total Bithead.  I've read very good things about the Yulong D100 MKII pairing with the Denons...in fact I just started a thread to see if I can get some more specific feedback on that pairing.  It may be worth checking out...a little higher than your budget but should come in about $450.

For a sub-500$ Desktop Dac/Amp combo the Yulong D100 is pretty hard to beat.

In case anyone is interested I'm selling one in the sales forum right now for a fair price...
But, honestly, I'm not even sure anymore if I really want to sell cause it seems to be extremelly difficult to upgrade from it without spending >1000$, more than double it's retail price... and I just don't have that kind of money right now... even if I sell it....

The thing is, the Yulong D100 is considered to be one of the best Desktop Dac/Amp combo under 500$ at the moment.
It's Dac performance is said to rival some 1000$ Dacs.
It is one of the most versatile pieces of equipement one can have due to it's inumerous inputs (optical, coaxial, USB, AES/EBU) and outputs (RCA for single ended and XLR for balanced amps) options. You can use it with pretty much any home audio equipement and gives you a pretty solid base to upgrade in the future.
The icing on the cake is the very decent built-in headphone amp, able to rival 250$ dedicated amps!

Overall it is one of the best values in the Dac/Amp combo segment under 500$.

Here's where you can find more info about the D100.

Anyway if any of you guys is interested in my offer just shoot me a PM.

billerb1, I don't have experience with the Denons but the Yulong A100 amp, which was designed to pair perfectly with the D100, is said to go very well with the Lawton Audio LA7000 (modified D700), this could be related to the other Denons to.... it has tonns of power for low impedance loads.

OK, enough of my shameless marketing rant... :P
Edited by kkl10 - 11/23/12 at 4:26am
post #48 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by billerb1 View Post

Chris, I wish you'd escort your way back in and let me know what issues you feel there are with Yulong.  Haven't heard to many negatives on the newer version of the D100, at least not with the Denons.  I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say.  Thanks.

Only because you asked nicely :)

The same reason I don't like NuForce, AudioGD, Schiit or iBasso. I don't like the way they do things. I feel like their goal is to try to sell something using gimmicks instead of putting out real gear . Granted, all these companies have probably put out a few good products. I don't claim to have tried them all, because I haven't. I dunno, I'm probably going to catch tons of flak for this. I just don't like any of those companies.

Companies I do like: JDS Labs, Centrance, Benchmark Media, SPL, HRT, Grace Design, Lavry, Anedio, Sansa (It would be awesome to see them get into the headphone amp/dac game),  Fiio (With research. A lot of their stuff is hit or miss).

If you can't spot the differences between the companies in the top list and the ones in the bottom list.. Well, you need to open your eyes IMO. If you want to buy hype, and you are happy with any products from the top list, that's really great. I'm glad you are happy, and I'm glad that company put out something that made you happy. It's all about enjoying music, after all.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkl10 View Post

OK, enough of my shameless marketing rant... :P

 

No kidding, it's hype that this that turns me away from companies. It's all "better than this" "better than that" with no talk of real reasons why. Great, the thing has a million and one inputs and outputs.. That just makes it easier to sell, that doesn't make it sound better. >.>


Edited by chrislangley4253 - 11/23/12 at 7:50am
post #49 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislangley4253 View Post

The same reason I don't like NuForce, AudioGD, Schiit or iBasso. I don't like the way they do things. I feel like their goal is to try to sell something using gimmicks instead of putting out real gear . Granted, all these companies have probably put out a few good products. I don't claim to have tried them all, because I haven't. I dunno, I'm probably going to catch tons of flak for this. I just don't like any of those companies.
If you can't spot the differences between the companies in the top list and the ones in the bottom list.. Well, you need to open your eyes IMO. If you want to buy hype, and you are happy with any products from the top list, that's really great. I'm glad you are happy, and I'm glad that company put out something that made you happy. It's all about enjoying music, after all.

I agree with you.
However its inevitable if you see it from the seller point of view. With so many good companies selling their stuff on the basis of proper measurements, the natural way to compete is to take the other route, of 'experience' and 'design by ear'. Whatever works.
post #50 of 67

I appreciate your passion, Chris.  I am so new to all of this...just getting my feet wet.  I'm 60, been a life-long gigging musician, so sound has always been important to me.  But I've never opened the door to learning about what's available, who all the companies are etc etc.  I do, however, know what I like when I hear it and why.  This addiction is going to cost me dearly, I know that!  Thanks for your thoughts. 

post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by billerb1 View Post

I appreciate your passion, Chris.  I am so new to all of this...just getting my feet wet.  I'm 60, been a life-long gigging musician, so sound has always been important to me.  But I've never opened the door to learning about what's available, who all the companies are etc etc.  I do, however, know what I like when I hear it and why.  This addiction is going to cost me dearly, I know that!  Thanks for your thoughts. 

 

Often when I read Chris' postings, I wonder if I'm schizoid and have been posting here for three years without knowing it. We seem to agree on (almost) everything.


Thanks, Chris, from me, too.

post #52 of 67
chrislangley4253, how about you buy mine D100? tongue.gif

I would agree with you that there is a lot of misinformation, hype and drool on Head-Fi.
I would imagine that it can be very difficult for a newcomer to know where to anchor his/her attention for some actual information.
There are more and more products coming out to the market every month and more and more people joining the community with a thirst for an immediate aural bliss reward. This inflow of expectation is most likely a source of a lot of the scattered hype and misinformation throughout the forum.
Somehow a newcomer must learn how to filter the real information out of the crap in order to make decisions.
But there is no clear path nor way to do this, because it's not possible to relate a cetain hype nor a certain product performance to the way a certain company works... nor vice-versa... among other things.
Looking at things as they are, without making any judgement, it seems to me that your whitelisted companies are as much hyped and drooled upon as your blacklisted and the increasing headfiers expectation inflow end up propelling and giving life to the Head-Fi market... for the better or worse.
It's truth that there are bad products coming out everyday, but all products are just an attempt to respond a certain niche of the Head-Fi market... and we always have the free will of simply not buying it, so it's not really fair to judge a company.

This is all becoming a big market with the benefits and prejudice inherent to every big market.
Some can filter out the good products from the crap, others can't... how can you help?
To each his own...
post #53 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkl10 View Post


For a sub-500$ Desktop Dac/Amp combo the Yulong D100 is pretty hard to beat.
In case anyone is interested I'm selling one in the sales forum right now for a fair price...
But, honestly, I'm not even sure anymore if I really want to sell cause it seems to be extremelly difficult to upgrade from it without spending >1000$, more than double it's retail price... and I just don't have that kind of money right now... even if I sell it....
The thing is, the Yulong D100 is considered to be one of the best Desktop Dac/Amp combo under 500$ at the moment.
It's Dac performance is said to rival some 1000$ Dacs.
It is one of the most versatile pieces of equipement one can have due to it's inumerous inputs (optical, coaxial, USB, AES/EBU) and outputs (RCA for single ended and XLR for balanced amps) options. You can use it with pretty much any home audio equipement and gives you a pretty solid base to upgrade in the future.
The icing on the cake is the very decent built-in headphone amp, able to rival 250$ dedicated amps!
Overall it is one of the best values in the Dac/Amp combo segment under 500$.
Here's where you can find more info about the D100.
Anyway if any of you guys is interested in my offer just shoot me a PM.
billerb1, I don't have experience with the Denons but the Yulong A100 amp, which was designed to pair perfectly with the D100, is said to go very well with the Lawton Audio LA7000 (modified D700), this could be related to the other Denons to.... it has tonns of power for low impedance loads.
OK, enough of my shameless marketing rant... :P

I acutally would like the d100, I read really good info on it, especially DAC wise. And I would really be considering it further, the only problem is the output wattage needs to be a bit more. I could buy a seperate amp, but thats even more money on top of the d100. Im sure however for just my denons id be very satisfied on it, but again im thinking for the soon future of HE-500s. 

post #54 of 67

Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post


I agree with you.
However its inevitable if you see it from the seller point of view. With so many good companies selling their stuff on the basis of proper measurements, the natural way to compete is to take the other route, of 'experience' and 'design by ear'. Whatever works.

 

Not to mention designing by "experience" and "by ear" allows them to cut costs and sell their products for cheap. I'm all for budget gear, but not at the expense of sound quality. Diminishing returns is easily reached in this hobby... If you do it right. The amount of crap being put out and hyped up makes it real difficult though.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by billerb1 View Post

I appreciate your passion, Chris.  I am so new to all of this...just getting my feet wet.  I'm 60, been a life-long gigging musician, so sound has always been important to me.  But I've never opened the door to learning about what's available, who all the companies are etc etc.  I do, however, know what I like when I hear it and why.  This addiction is going to cost me dearly, I know that!  Thanks for your thoughts. 

 

Oh boy :) You're gonna have some fun! I was a beginner too, and I bought into hype! *gasp*

Some of my bigger "wtf was I thinking" moments: Silver recables, Audio-GD Sparrow, various Grado mods that actually hurt the sound and I wound up trying to reverse later, same story with portapro mods.
 

No one comes on here and says something is great, without thinking it's really great. No one is a liar when they are talking about products they like.. There is just a lot of purchase justification and expectation bias on these forums. Lots of hype, but that's okay. This hobby just takes a lot of patience (I say as I'm sitting here totally frustrated with my current t50rp mod, using my speakers to listen to a radio show where a guy plays scratchy vinyl) :D

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkl10 View Post

chrislangley4253, how about you buy mine D100? tongue.gif
I would agree with you that there is a lot of misinformation, hype and drool on Head-Fi. I would imagine that it can be very difficult for a newcomer to know where to anchor his/her attention for some actual information.
There are more and more products coming out to the market every month and more and more people joining the community with a thirst for an immediate aural bliss reward. This inflow of expectation is most likely a source of a lot of the scattered hype and misinformation throughout the forum.Somehow a newcomer must learn how to filter the real information out of the crap in order to make decisions.
But there is no clear path nor way to do this, because it's not possible to relate a cetain hype nor a certain product performance to the way a certain company works... nor vice-versa... among other things.
Looking at things as they are, without making any judgement, it seems to me that your whitelisted companies are as much hyped and drooled upon as your blacklisted and the increasing headfiers expectation inflow end up propelling and giving life to the Head-Fi market... for the better or worse.
It's truth that there are bad products coming out everyday, but all products are just an attempt to respond a certain niche of the Head-Fi market... and we always have the free will of simply not buying it, so it's not really fair to judge a company.
This is all becoming a big market with the benefits and prejudice inherent to every big market.
Some can filter out the good products from the crap, others can't... how can you help?
To each his own...

You are spot on with the expectation and hype :)

The main difference between my "whitelisted" and "blacklisted" companies is that you could pretty much buy any product from one of those whitelisted companies and know that it will perform well objectively (with the exceptions of fiio and sansa). You can safely assume the products they all put out are quite comparable because they are all designed well. You see, the purpose of a DAC is very simple, as is the purpose of an amp. One converts digital to analog, the other amplifies. Neither of those tasks you want to hear, you just want them to happen. All good amps should sound very similar, all good dacs should pretty much indistinguishable from each-other.

Now, when you start messing around with tube amps things are quite different. Personally, I could never use tube gear. If I want a colored sound, I will use EQ or colored speakers/headphones. I can't stand the idea of all my music being colored by a piece of gear in my chain that I can't switch out. (of course, many guys around here have many different amps with many different tubes. Also, of course some tube amps are probably indistinguishable from good solid state ones. It's just a bit harder to design a good tube amp than it is solid state).

It is fair to judge a company when they consistently put out under-performing products and when they sling around lots of audiophile words and snake oil. You can tell a lot about a company by how they write up the description for their amp. If it's full of beautiful prose and design quirks that no one else has and rambles about their awesome esoteric or exotic parts.. I'd be concerned, none of those things make a good amp. A good amp is made with careful attention to design, measurements, and finally some critical listening. You can make a decent amp without being an electrical engineer by just listening and having a lot of luck... But, your chances of building one better than an EE with nice audio analysis tools are slim to none.
 
post #55 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaborus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislangley4253 View Post

Voldemort is a reference to the designer of the Odac. Hopefully I don't get in trouble for explaining that.. I don't think I'm really allowed to mention him. But, his products are so.. prominent on here, it's kinda hard to avoid doing so. So, he has a few nicknames. *shrugs*

 

He wasn't very fond of schiit audio. So, he'd be at least partially upset at seeing his design coupled with one of their amps.

Also, he hasn't posted anything in forever. That's kind of a part of the pun too.. I'm calling him dead.
 

I think it makes sense. It's kinda late confused_face.gif

If your talking about who im talking about, the "designer of the ODAC" was banned from head-fi. You cant even mention his name without getting your post deleted. Personally i have a conspiracy that Head-fi is working with botique audio companies to try to supress his product and ideaologies, because obviously his products are superior products to 99% of what is out there for budget prices.

 

Alas, this post will probably get deleted by a mod.

 

You are so banned... NOT. We are doing such a poor job at it that we forgot to delete all the threads discussing both and allow discussion of the O2 and ODAC and two companies that make it to sponsor us. Whoops. wink.gif And what WiR3D said. For future reference, you can't link to the web sites of banned members. 

 

Back on topic, the only thing I know under $400 that has a DAC and amp and puts out a bit of serious power, which would be good for orthos, is the Audio-gd NFB-11.32. Down the track, if you decided to upgrade from that, it should make a good DAC for a better headphone amp for the HE500s.

post #56 of 67
Thread Starter 

Would you say thats superior to the ODAC and Asgard combo? In all honesty guys, I dont have an issue paying a bit more, if it means I dont need to upgrade rather quickly later finding the Asgard wont suffice for power. 

 

If there is an amp/dac combo that is superior enough, and will properly drive the HE-500s, and the Denons, its not a huge deal for it to be  equal than or >$500. Id rather buy something, and spend  a bit extra then buy it and regret it and have to spend again. 

post #57 of 67
I wouldn't worry too much about the ODAC/Asgard combo, it should sound nice and serve you well.

The NFB-11.32 should be a little less warm than the Asgard from what I've gathered but I'm still on the fence about Audio-gd as a company. I've heard good things and bad, but the fact that they've got a new design every 4.8 seconds worries me slightly and the bad feedback is usually VERY bad.

I believe there's a quote floating around somewhere along the lines of "It's possible for a product to measure well and not sound good, I'm not sure how it's possible but it is". I respect chrislangleys opinion and his advice, I've seen him around, but I know he's certainly a huge fan of the O2/ODAC (and for good reason, it's a fantastic device. I want a slightly more powerful ODA and I'd be a happy camper). I"m somewhere in the middle of the objective/subjective line, as because of differing anatomy it's hard to make anything really sound the same to everyone, and at some point it comes down to buying what YOU think sounds good to YOU.
post #58 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathdeisel View Post

Would you say thats superior to the ODAC and Asgard combo? In all honesty guys, I dont have an issue paying a bit more, if it means I dont need to upgrade rather quickly later finding the Asgard wont suffice for power. 

 

If there is an amp/dac combo that is superior enough, and will properly drive the HE-500s, and the Denons, its not a huge deal for it to be  equal than or >$500. Id rather buy something, and spend  a bit extra then buy it and regret it and have to spend again. 

 

I tried the Asgard with the LCD-2s and thought it was a poor combination. I think Denons work out well if you're going on the cheap with gear but there isn't much in the way of very inexpensive gear that has a good, high-current drive that does well with orthos in my experience. Sure, there are quite a few amps that technically will, but none of the "technical" part or measurements are done using music.

post #59 of 67

Oh boy where to start. (Don't take offence this is supposed to be a constructive debate - You would have seen one of my more offending posts by now - its blatant)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislangley4253 View Post

Only because you asked nicely :)

The same reason I don't like NuForce, AudioGD, Schiit or iBasso. I don't like the way they do things. I feel like their goal is to try to sell something using gimmicks instead of putting out real gear . Granted, all these companies have probably put out a few good products. I don't claim to have tried them all, because I haven't. I dunno, I'm probably going to catch tons of flak for this. I just don't like any of those companies.

Companies I do like: JDS Labs, Centrance, Benchmark Media, SPL, HRT, Grace Design, Lavry, Anedio, Sansa (It would be awesome to see them get into the headphone amp/dac game),  Fiio (With research. A lot of their stuff is hit or miss).

If you can't spot the differences between the companies in the top list and the ones in the bottom list.. Well, you need to open your eyes IMO. If you want to buy hype, and you are happy with any products from the top list, that's really great. I'm glad you are happy, and I'm glad that company put out something that made you happy. It's all about enjoying music, after all.

 

 

No kidding, it's hype that this that turns me away from companies. It's all "better than this" "better than that" with no talk of real reasons why. Great, the thing has a million and one inputs and outputs.. That just makes it easier to sell, that doesn't make it sound better. >.>

I get NuForce, iBasso, and Schiit.

I don't like nuforce because of the design by ear. And ****ttttttt measurements.

I don't like iBasso because of quoting component specs for final specs.

I don't like Schiit because of how they handled the Asgard fiasco, namely by flat out denying and avoiding it, then coming back later and saying whoops. Versus Hifiman with the glitch with the HE-400 where they looked into it first and then publicly announced the mistake. 

 

But AudioGD... I can't group them in the same boat. I mean Kingwa did win the Texus Instuments competition for amp building, And there is no way in hell they award it to some guy who designs by ear when the entire company exists solely on measurements and implementation. And Yes I don't like how he throws around some bigger names Like how he somewhat copied Mark Levinson's current based volume control (which IMHO kicks the snot out of stupid pots.) But he also posts measurements, and he is of the uncoloured opinion, he designs his master series gear to be as transparent as possible.

 

I also won't knock the revisions,  Amps get old, the new ones coming out today clobber the ones from 5 years ago at the same price. Technology improves, and so will implementation. GIve him credit for keeping them up to date.

 

And Yulong? Fek only knows why you don't like him, he also design for specs, BUT he designs for sound afterwords (his reference gear includes the notorious HD800) which probably explains why his D18 DAC can measure so well and still sound like vinyl, which is a mean challenge. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislangley4253 View Post

 

Not to mention designing by "experience" and "by ear" allows them to cut costs and sell their products for cheap. I'm all for budget gear, but not at the expense of sound quality. Diminishing returns is easily reached in this hobby... If you do it right. The amount of crap being put out and hyped up makes it real difficult though.

 

Oh boy :) You're gonna have some fun! I was a beginner too, and I bought into hype! *gasp*

Some of my bigger "wtf was I thinking" moments: Silver recables, Audio-GD Sparrow, various Grado mods that actually hurt the sound and I wound up trying to reverse later, same story with portapro mods.
 

No one comes on here and says something is great, without thinking it's really great. No one is a liar when they are talking about products they like.. There is just a lot of purchase justification and expectation bias on these forums. Lots of hype, but that's okay. This hobby just takes a lot of patience (I say as I'm sitting here totally frustrated with my current t50rp mod, using my speakers to listen to a radio show where a guy plays scratchy vinyl) :D

I won't lie hype exists, and its bad. 

Silver cables are a joke, a good OFC copper that doesn't go prison style on you is all good. 

 

Talking of mods, I just discovered that the previous owner of my D7000 placed some foam rings between the pads and the cups, which gave it more soundstage but made it u-shaped as hell and treble of death, and it annoyed the hell out of me, now i just removed it and it's a completely different headphone. RAWR, And I have moaned a few times about the treble on these puppies. Which is now not a problem..... kak.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uberbob102000 View Post

I wouldn't worry too much about the ODAC/Asgard combo, it should sound nice and serve you well.
The NFB-11.32 should be a little less warm than the Asgard from what I've gathered but I'm still on the fence about Audio-gd as a company. I've heard good things and bad, but the fact that they've got a new design every 4.8 seconds worries me slightly and the bad feedback is usually VERY bad.
I believe there's a quote floating around somewhere along the lines of "It's possible for a product to measure well and not sound good, I'm not sure how it's possible but it is". I respect chrislangleys opinion and his advice, I've seen him around, but I know he's certainly a huge fan of the O2/ODAC (and for good reason, it's a fantastic device. I want a slightly more powerful ODA and I'd be a happy camper). I"m somewhere in the middle of the objective/subjective line, as because of differing anatomy it's hard to make anything really sound the same to everyone, and at some point it comes down to buying what YOU think sounds good to YOU.

see above.

 

 

And on a side note @Chris, audio IMO should be based on solid theory and measurements, but if you have ever opamp rolled (where theoretically they will have no difference in sound from one another) you will know there are factors that cannot be measured, And level of euphoria is one of them (and the reason I love my Denon D7000, the king of fun after all) So having measurements is all good, but it should still sound good. And thats often the criticism with the ODAC and the O2, but its not really a problem with a headphone like the D7000 which has a very strong character and dominates the components upstream. So they suit the Denons fine, but something a bit more influenced by the colour of the upstream components could very well sound bad, cold, lifeless. 

post #60 of 67

Lol, I've only been here about a month...and I have learned an absolute ton.   You guys are silly and passionate lunatics!  I friggin love it.

Describing or looking for "the sound" will do that to a human being.  I'm an old drummer.  The only people on earth who may...and I emphasize MAY...

rival your fury are drummers describing and arguing the merits of their cymbals.  Now THERE is a group that cannot be saved.

God help us all.

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