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Frogbeats Custom-IEM Appreciation Thread - Page 52

post #766 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshot View Post

@ChewingGum: Like I mentioned earlier, try giving a 100+ ohm resistor a shot... I found that it brings up the treble, flattens bass, and makes vocals less distant, more transparent, and all that jazz. I don't know if it will be the miracle solution that will address all of you issues with the C4, but heck it can't hurt considering it only costs like $10 - plus, I think it'd bring the C4's closer to your desired sound signature.

 

Cool, thanks for the tip, itshot. Do you have any links to appropriate resistors?

 

Quote:
Also what is 'neutral' to you? I feel like everyone has a different answer and I find myself getting confused as to what neutrality really is. For me its a sound signature that isn't dark, isn't bright, but somewhere in the middle.

 

I'm not sure if this is directed at uelover or me. For what it's worth... in my opinion, there is only ONE interpretation of neutral. That is: Technically Neutral, in other words - flat FR and fast drivers (short decay) across the spectrum. OK so there is some lee-way given the recording equipment and the ears of the mastering engineer. But if you've listened to enough mixing sessions (I work in broadcast post production so take a dubbing suite running ProTools via a 192 into good monitors eg Genelecs as my reference), you know what neutral means.

 

If people have their own tastes and preferences, that's fine, but there is no question as to 'neutrality'. In my case, I prefer a more treble-y sound compared to the average joe on the street. I do not, however, let this personal preference influence my understanding of 'neutral'.

 

Sorry if this sounds like a mini-rant, but I am sick and tired of reading poorly written reviews etc, in which words like 'neutral' are used not so much for their specific meanings, but rather as a generic compliment (ie 'neutral' = I like this sound because I have awesome ears and the internet tells me awesome ears appreciates flatness). Ugh.

post #767 of 863

There's stuff like this on eBay which you can have made with higher ohm ratings. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Etymotic-ER4P-to-ER4S-3-5MM-plug-resistor-adaptor-/271187691903?pt=US_MP3_Player_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3f240bc97f)

 

But personally I just use my old TF10 airplane adapter which is a 100 ohm resistor.


Edited by itshot - 4/24/13 at 11:28am
post #768 of 863
Do they sell those Tf10 attenuators?
post #769 of 863

I've seen them go for under $10 on ebay.

post #770 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshot View Post


Also what is 'neutral' to you? I feel like everyone has a different answer and I find myself getting confused as to what neutrality really is. For me its a sound signature that isn't dark, isn't bright, but somewhere in the middle. In any case, I'll pit the C4's against my ER4S which are coming in today. :P

There is no personal interpretation of neutral. There can be subjective interpretation about the degree of warmth or brightness or many other terms in sound like 'natural sounding' but not neutral, for it is a strict technical term for flat FR with zero coloration upon the signal. It is an objective term.
post #771 of 863

Neutral is really a term for a neutral or transparent amp, it gets complicated with headphones.

post #772 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by uelover View Post


There is no personal interpretation of neutral. There can be subjective interpretation about the degree of warmth or brightness or many other terms in sound like 'natural sounding' but not neutral, for it is a strict technical term for flat FR with zero coloration upon the signal. It is an objective term.

 

By this def, that means something neutral sounding should be identifiable by just looking at a graph right? If it's so objective. 

 

Once we get into subjective listening, how would you tell if something has zero coloration? Would you have to go to test tones? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by itshot View Post

 

 

Also what is 'neutral' to you? I feel like everyone has a different answer and I find myself getting confused as to what neutrality really is. For me its a sound signature that isn't dark, isn't bright, but somewhere in the middle. In any case, I'll pit the C4's against my ER4S which are coming in today. :P

Apparently they're the king of neutrality, so I guess you can compare the C4s with them to see how far from neutral they are.

post #773 of 863
For those who are trying to sell their C4s, how does Frogbeats handle the reselling process? I am thinking about going on to something perhaps from Fitear in the near future and I have no choice but to sell them if I am to make the budget work.
post #774 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by 23t23dS View Post

For those who are trying to sell their C4s, how does Frogbeats handle the reselling process? I am thinking about going on to something perhaps from Fitear in the near future and I have no choice but to sell them if I am to make the budget work.

Apparently now there is an $85 ownership transfer similar to Heir's. Which makes the reselling a bit easier.

post #775 of 863

Interesting discussion -- what is 'neutral'.  

 

I think that UELover and BoyChewingGum are correct, theoretically.  There is some 'correct' amount of SPL that should come out of any transducer as a result of a specific electrical signal.  

 

The question in the real world though is "how do you know what that amount is?"  

 

As a 'thought expirement', you could make a recording, carefully measuring the SPL by frequency input to the recording system, and then push the recording through a chain of 'perfectly neutral' electronics until the sound comes out of the headphones (or speakers) and compare the result to the record of the input levels.  

 

But practically speaking, that's not going to happen.  Instead, what you're going to get are the opinions of 'expert' ears masquerading as 'objective measurement'.  

 

I'm not trying to start an fight, and I'm sure that UELover and BoyChewingGum have much better ears than I do.  But still, the argument that:

 

"...if you've listened to enough mixing sessions (I work in broadcast post production so take a dubbing suite running ProTools via a 192 into good monitors eg Genelecs as my reference), you know what neutral means."

 

is simply Argument by Superior Authority.  

 

BTW, I certainly don't argue that the C4s are 'neutral' -- I find that the amount of energy mine produce at the upper-mids and highs are too great compared to the bass.  But at least I know that could just be my ears.  

 

What I do find is that there's lots of detail in their reproduction at all frequencies, and that I can get a pretty good approximation of what seems neutral to me (based solely on my comparison with the sound to the Ety 4P) with a little bass boost eq.

 

It's very interesting to me to read all of these impressions/reviews of the C4s.  It's almost like folks are listening to a different earphone than I am.  Certainly I can't hear much of Omphalopsychite's description in the earphones I'm listening to. I know this is rude to FrogBeats, but I wonder how consistent the sound is between individual sets?  

 

I suppose the real variation is between ears.

post #776 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCMusicLover View Post

It's very interesting to me to read all of these impressions/reviews of the C4s. It's almost like folks are listening to a different earphone than I am.  Certainly I can't hear much of Omphalopsychite's description in the earphones I'm listening to. I know this is rude to FrogBeats, but I wonder how consistent the sound is between individual sets?  

x2 lolz... a FR graph would be nice to have included with the box and stuff.

 

So I'm guessing that  C4's are not textbook 110% neutral, but rather neutralish or fairly neutral? Whatever the case, I feel that C4's offer a pretty good sound signature... its really easy to listen to imo. I might try and get a 200ohm resistor later on, but first I want to see how the SPC cable that I've ordered will affect the sound sig.

 

Also been doing a spot of AB-ing with the ER4S, and initially the ER4S' have too much treble for my ears (its my third time owning an ER4). Which brings me to another factor that could be the reason why there is a wide range of reaction to the C4's... brain burn-in, or acclimation. I suspect that some of the people here with the C4's might have other top tier cans/headphones that they are using as a point of reference which could skew or otherwise affect some people's impressions.


Edited by itshot - 4/24/13 at 11:28pm
post #777 of 863

This is quite an interesting discussion, re: neutrality.

 

LCML, you're correct of course, in saying that there's no way to know how much SPL at specific frequency band is enough, or too little, or too much. A boost in a specific range could be down to the recording, the listening equipment, or the brain; there's no objective way of disambiguating.

 

However, over time everyone, from the engineers to the listener, conforms to a standard. We all have human ears, perhaps with difference nuances and conditioning, but essentially we all share the same listening device. Unless you have defective hearing, it is only a matter of time before you realise the human ear 'baseline', as it were. In the manner of an after school special (is that what they call it?): our ears are far, far more alike than they are different.

 

And LCML, you're right about the superior authority argument, it really isn't thaat valid. All the same, if you've never heard neutral before, you might find it more difficult to identify.

 

[edited for spelling]


Edited by BoyChewingGum - 4/25/13 at 4:07am
post #778 of 863

Since I listen at very modest volume levels and other headfier's listen to their C4's at much higher levels (to me at least). I am also pretty curious as to how varying volume levels affect the frequency response and how that could maybe affect how people hear how neutral (or not) a headphone is. I remember being something about a fletcher munsun curve?


Edited by itshot - 4/25/13 at 10:06am
post #779 of 863

I have to be honest I listen loud, but then there can be a difference in the gain of recordings.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contours

post #780 of 863

Isn't that sorta the point of a good amplifier? So you can listen at lower volumes without sacrificing detail retrieval.

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