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Frogbeats Custom-IEM Appreciation Thread - Page 52

post #766 of 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by uelover View Post


Does all rock boxed clip+ have the same volume meter? -45db on my clip+ is the volume that is much softer than normal conversational level between two people in real life.


Really depends on the track being listened to. Classical is MUCH quieter than rock for example! :p

post #767 of 868

Hi all

 

I received my C4's last week (took 6 weeks and not longer, which was nice). The fit is good, perhaps a little loose - I can pop'em out by grinning like a mad man, no hands! - and isolation is excellent.

 

The SQ though, is NOT neutral, nor transparent, nor analytical. They are perfectly serviceable CIEM's, but are definitely more 'headphones' than 'monitors'. Big bass hump in the 100Hz-200Hz range, rolled off top top end (>10kHz) and generally a rather cloudy, ever so slightly muffled sound. Hmm.

 

For other potential customers, I feel I should warn ya: these are enjoyable and engaging 'phones, but if you're looking for a flat, lean sound, you should probably look elsewhere.

 

I would also agree with Omphalopsychite's comments that instruments sound distant. The soundstage is super narrow and vocals lack presence (probably due to the 4kHz suckout as identified on changstar).

 

It's a weird one - the imaging ability (speed, essentially) is decent and I can track reverbs well enough. Top end is smooth and well-controlled... there's a lot here which is very promising, but ultimately these are clearly tuned to consumers' ears and not engineers' ears.

 

On top of that, my 'light blue' shells came back pretty frigging dark blue (will post pics when I work out how to).

 

Meh. I'll probably keep'em and try a silver cable etc. to see if it improves. Still, I'm disappointed that Frogbeats advertises the C4 as having 'balanced and neutral sound'. This is patently not true.

 

EDITED to correct 'neutral sound' / was 'natural sound'.


Edited by BoyChewingGum - 4/24/13 at 6:54am
post #768 of 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoyChewingGum View Post

The SQ though, is NOT neutral, nor transparent, nor analytical. They are perfectly serviceable CIEM's, but are definitely more 'headphones' than 'monitors'. 

 

Still, I'm disappointed that Frogbeats advertises the C4 as having 'balanced and neutral sound'. This is patently not true.

 

Exactly, though I am more disappointed with LFF's review than Frogbeats' advertisement. Now I know his taste and how he defines sound (particularly neutrality), I will surely take his words with a pinch of salt.

 

Was looking for a purely monitoring CIEM and I did chose C4 ahead of UERM based on the positive review by LFF as well as a few others. I ended up having to spend once more to get the UERM.

 

The C4 is for listening pleasure. It is very clean sounding because it doesn't let you hear many things which are actually present in the track. You simply can't use this as a tool for monitoring or mixing.

post #769 of 868

@ChewingGum: Like I mentioned earlier, try giving a 100+ ohm resistor a shot... I found that it brings up the treble, flattens bass, and makes vocals less distant, more transparent, and all that jazz. I don't know if it will be the miracle solution that will address all of you issues with the C4, but heck it can't hurt considering it only costs like $10 - plus, I think it'd bring the C4's closer to your desired sound signature.

 

Anyways, uelover, you said that using a resistor is an audio 'sin'? The only difference between the ER4S and P is the 75ohm resistor. Likewise Lear has a 4-BA CIEM of which you can a purchase a 180ohm resistor. Which is to say that, again, that its worth looking into resistors bearing in mind their low cost.

 

Also what is 'neutral' to you? I feel like everyone has a different answer and I find myself getting confused as to what neutrality really is. For me its a sound signature that isn't dark, isn't bright, but somewhere in the middle. In any case, I'll pit the C4's against my ER4S which are coming in today. :P


Edited by itshot - 4/24/13 at 10:22am
post #770 of 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshot View Post

@ChewingGum: Like I mentioned earlier, try giving a 100+ ohm resistor a shot... I found that it brings up the treble, flattens bass, and makes vocals less distant, more transparent, and all that jazz. I don't know if it will be the miracle solution that will address all of you issues with the C4, but heck it can't hurt considering it only costs like $10 - plus, I think it'd bring the C4's closer to your desired sound signature.

 

Cool, thanks for the tip, itshot. Do you have any links to appropriate resistors?

 

Quote:
Also what is 'neutral' to you? I feel like everyone has a different answer and I find myself getting confused as to what neutrality really is. For me its a sound signature that isn't dark, isn't bright, but somewhere in the middle.

 

I'm not sure if this is directed at uelover or me. For what it's worth... in my opinion, there is only ONE interpretation of neutral. That is: Technically Neutral, in other words - flat FR and fast drivers (short decay) across the spectrum. OK so there is some lee-way given the recording equipment and the ears of the mastering engineer. But if you've listened to enough mixing sessions (I work in broadcast post production so take a dubbing suite running ProTools via a 192 into good monitors eg Genelecs as my reference), you know what neutral means.

 

If people have their own tastes and preferences, that's fine, but there is no question as to 'neutrality'. In my case, I prefer a more treble-y sound compared to the average joe on the street. I do not, however, let this personal preference influence my understanding of 'neutral'.

 

Sorry if this sounds like a mini-rant, but I am sick and tired of reading poorly written reviews etc, in which words like 'neutral' are used not so much for their specific meanings, but rather as a generic compliment (ie 'neutral' = I like this sound because I have awesome ears and the internet tells me awesome ears appreciates flatness). Ugh.

post #771 of 868

There's stuff like this on eBay which you can have made with higher ohm ratings. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Etymotic-ER4P-to-ER4S-3-5MM-plug-resistor-adaptor-/271187691903?pt=US_MP3_Player_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3f240bc97f)

 

But personally I just use my old TF10 airplane adapter which is a 100 ohm resistor.


Edited by itshot - 4/24/13 at 11:28am
post #772 of 868
Do they sell those Tf10 attenuators?
post #773 of 868

I've seen them go for under $10 on ebay.

post #774 of 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshot View Post


Also what is 'neutral' to you? I feel like everyone has a different answer and I find myself getting confused as to what neutrality really is. For me its a sound signature that isn't dark, isn't bright, but somewhere in the middle. In any case, I'll pit the C4's against my ER4S which are coming in today. :P

There is no personal interpretation of neutral. There can be subjective interpretation about the degree of warmth or brightness or many other terms in sound like 'natural sounding' but not neutral, for it is a strict technical term for flat FR with zero coloration upon the signal. It is an objective term.
post #775 of 868

Neutral is really a term for a neutral or transparent amp, it gets complicated with headphones.

post #776 of 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by uelover View Post


There is no personal interpretation of neutral. There can be subjective interpretation about the degree of warmth or brightness or many other terms in sound like 'natural sounding' but not neutral, for it is a strict technical term for flat FR with zero coloration upon the signal. It is an objective term.

 

By this def, that means something neutral sounding should be identifiable by just looking at a graph right? If it's so objective. 

 

Once we get into subjective listening, how would you tell if something has zero coloration? Would you have to go to test tones? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by itshot View Post

 

 

Also what is 'neutral' to you? I feel like everyone has a different answer and I find myself getting confused as to what neutrality really is. For me its a sound signature that isn't dark, isn't bright, but somewhere in the middle. In any case, I'll pit the C4's against my ER4S which are coming in today. :P

Apparently they're the king of neutrality, so I guess you can compare the C4s with them to see how far from neutral they are.

post #777 of 868
For those who are trying to sell their C4s, how does Frogbeats handle the reselling process? I am thinking about going on to something perhaps from Fitear in the near future and I have no choice but to sell them if I am to make the budget work.
post #778 of 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by 23t23dS View Post

For those who are trying to sell their C4s, how does Frogbeats handle the reselling process? I am thinking about going on to something perhaps from Fitear in the near future and I have no choice but to sell them if I am to make the budget work.

Apparently now there is an $85 ownership transfer similar to Heir's. Which makes the reselling a bit easier.

post #779 of 868

Interesting discussion -- what is 'neutral'.  

 

I think that UELover and BoyChewingGum are correct, theoretically.  There is some 'correct' amount of SPL that should come out of any transducer as a result of a specific electrical signal.  

 

The question in the real world though is "how do you know what that amount is?"  

 

As a 'thought expirement', you could make a recording, carefully measuring the SPL by frequency input to the recording system, and then push the recording through a chain of 'perfectly neutral' electronics until the sound comes out of the headphones (or speakers) and compare the result to the record of the input levels.  

 

But practically speaking, that's not going to happen.  Instead, what you're going to get are the opinions of 'expert' ears masquerading as 'objective measurement'.  

 

I'm not trying to start an fight, and I'm sure that UELover and BoyChewingGum have much better ears than I do.  But still, the argument that:

 

"...if you've listened to enough mixing sessions (I work in broadcast post production so take a dubbing suite running ProTools via a 192 into good monitors eg Genelecs as my reference), you know what neutral means."

 

is simply Argument by Superior Authority.  

 

BTW, I certainly don't argue that the C4s are 'neutral' -- I find that the amount of energy mine produce at the upper-mids and highs are too great compared to the bass.  But at least I know that could just be my ears.  

 

What I do find is that there's lots of detail in their reproduction at all frequencies, and that I can get a pretty good approximation of what seems neutral to me (based solely on my comparison with the sound to the Ety 4P) with a little bass boost eq.

 

It's very interesting to me to read all of these impressions/reviews of the C4s.  It's almost like folks are listening to a different earphone than I am.  Certainly I can't hear much of Omphalopsychite's description in the earphones I'm listening to. I know this is rude to FrogBeats, but I wonder how consistent the sound is between individual sets?  

 

I suppose the real variation is between ears.

post #780 of 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCMusicLover View Post

It's very interesting to me to read all of these impressions/reviews of the C4s. It's almost like folks are listening to a different earphone than I am.  Certainly I can't hear much of Omphalopsychite's description in the earphones I'm listening to. I know this is rude to FrogBeats, but I wonder how consistent the sound is between individual sets?  

x2 lolz... a FR graph would be nice to have included with the box and stuff.

 

So I'm guessing that  C4's are not textbook 110% neutral, but rather neutralish or fairly neutral? Whatever the case, I feel that C4's offer a pretty good sound signature... its really easy to listen to imo. I might try and get a 200ohm resistor later on, but first I want to see how the SPC cable that I've ordered will affect the sound sig.

 

Also been doing a spot of AB-ing with the ER4S, and initially the ER4S' have too much treble for my ears (its my third time owning an ER4). Which brings me to another factor that could be the reason why there is a wide range of reaction to the C4's... brain burn-in, or acclimation. I suspect that some of the people here with the C4's might have other top tier cans/headphones that they are using as a point of reference which could skew or otherwise affect some people's impressions.


Edited by itshot - 4/24/13 at 11:28pm
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