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AKG K240 Studios + FiiO E9. Good combination? - Page 2

post #16 of 36
11/12/12 at 12:02pm
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Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

You're just so wrong it's not funny. Even if you have both at a setting that equates to the same volume, the E9 is going to sound better than the E7 because of better design and better components. Depending on the amp, it increases both voltage AND current in varying amounts. High impedance headphones need high voltage and low sensitivity headphones need high current. Obviously if a headphone is both high impedance and low sensitivity, it needs both high voltage and high current to sound right. 

 

And yes, it CAN make your music sound more energetic. The more power the amp has, the more control it will have over the diaphragm, which can increase attack/decay. Which leads to PRaT (Pace, Rhythm and Timing), which is a headphone's "sense of rhythm". Having lots of PRaT on the low end of the frequency spectrum is commonly referred to as "bass energy". Having lots of PRaT on the whole sound is often called "energetic". If a headphone is underpowered it can most definitely sound slow.

 

Another example: my Pioneer SE-700s (an absolute BEAST to drive, stupidly low sensitivity and technically infinite impedance) sound like absolute **** out of my iPhone. The midrange is bloomy and grainy, they have no treble extension, and thee PRaT is totally absent. I get enough volume but they don't sound good at all. With the E7, they still sound bad, don't get any louder, but do still sound far better than the iPhone, with a little bit of PRaT and a mostly smooth sound. Only hooking them up to speaker taps can make them sound how they're supposed to. Even at the same volume my E7 commands, they sound FAR better. The highs extend much farther, as do the lows, and everything tightens up and sounds extremely lively.

 

I don't get how I'm the only one calling you a jackass for this. Try an HD800 out of a Sansa clip and compare it to a DNA Sonett at the same volume. I guarantee you'll change your argument.

 

All nonsense. The more power an amp has, the louder it will make your headphones. That is it. This is especially true for higher impedance headphones because they do not draw much current, they merely need a high enough voltage swing to attain the desired volume without distorting. PRaT is also BS. No properly designed amplifier has slew rates low enough to audibly affect the "rhythm" of the music. And the damping factor is good enough with the E7 because it has a such a low output impedance... not that it even matters since headphone diaphragms have low masses.

 

As a matter of fact, the E9 is a worse choice for the K240 pro's because they are a 55 ohm headphone, but the E9 has an output impedance of 10 ohms which is too high. It has nothing to do with "better" components, but all to do with how the amp is designed and spec'd.

 

Jesus mother****ing CHRIST you're stupid.

 

I'm telling you I hear clearly audible differences at identical volumes. Every user on this forum will agree with me. You will realize you're being a complete idiot when you actually get a headphone that's hard to drive. Regardless of research, if you don't test something yourself, you have no credibility, ESPECIALLY not when you're contradicting everything anyone has said, ever. Not that you actually DID research, because I did, and everything I've seen doesn't match your claims.

 

And what the hell is a K240 Pro? That doesn't exist.


Edited by takato14 - 11/12/12 at 12:06pm
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post #17 of 36
11/12/12 at 12:41pm

Them's some fightin' words from someone creating a thread to ask a question.  eek.gif

 

E9 performance is actually mostly similar to that of E7 internal amp, just with a lot more gain and higher output powers possible.  The biggest potentially non-trivial difference other than max output power is the higher output impedance, technically not good for 55 nominal (up to 150 ohms @ ~100 Hz) headphones like the modern K240 variants, though that shouldn't cause too much of a shift.  (But as always, "different" may not mean "worse" to some.)  With the E9, you would get a slight midbass boost, which may or may not be preferred.  That said, modern K240 has a bit of a midbass-to-low mids tilt to begin with; if that kind of sound is boring to you, E9 may make that a small step in the wrong direction.

 

Most likely, you may be happier with your other headphones and selling off the K240S.  No need to force yourself to like them.  I think too many people here blame amps before headphones.  It's usually he headphones that need to go, with some exceptions of course.  Yes, it's okay that we hear differently, prefer different things, have different-shaped ears, like different headphones...

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post #18 of 36
11/12/12 at 2:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Them's some fightin' words from someone creating a thread to ask a question.  eek.gif

 

E9 performance is actually mostly similar to that of E7 internal amp, just with a lot more gain and higher output powers possible.  The biggest potentially non-trivial difference other than max output power is the higher output impedance, technically not good for 55 nominal (up to 150 ohms @ ~100 Hz) headphones like the modern K240 variants, though that shouldn't cause too much of a shift.  (But as always, "different" may not mean "worse" to some.)  With the E9, you would get a slight midbass boost, which may or may not be preferred.  That said, modern K240 has a bit of a midbass-to-low mids tilt to begin with; if that kind of sound is boring to you, E9 may make that a small step in the wrong direction.

 

Most likely, you may be happier with your other headphones and selling off the K240S.  No need to force yourself to like them.  I think too many people here blame amps before headphones.  It's usually he headphones that need to go, with some exceptions of course.  Yes, it's okay that we hear differently, prefer different things, have different-shaped ears, like different headphones...

Thank you, very much.

 

I was a just a tad upset that no one actually answered my question tongue.gif


Edited by takato14 - 11/12/12 at 6:17pm
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post #19 of 36
11/12/12 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

 

All nonsense. The more power an amp has, the louder it will make your headphones. That is it. This is especially true for higher impedance headphones because they do not draw much current, they merely need a high enough voltage swing to attain the desired volume without distorting. PRaT is also BS. No properly designed amplifier has slew rates low enough to audibly affect the "rhythm" of the music. And the damping factor is good enough with the E7 because it has a such a low output impedance... not that it even matters since headphone diaphragms have low masses.

You're forgetting that a headphone's listed impedance is RMS, you need to look at the impedance curve to understand why amplifier upgrades can change sound signatures, and why this phenomena isn't exhibited on some headphones. (when the plot is a flat line)  This can change elements of the sound to a limited degree of course, but if a certain point on the graph is higher than the listed RMS, and your amp is just barely able to power the headphones, that one section of frequencies may not be getting enough power.  Also true with high output impedance amps and the damping factor for each frequency whose impedance is over the RMS.  The other common explanation is that higher voltage fed into the coil results in a higher powered magnetic field, which yes, does increase volume but also deepens the maximum excursion depth.  I'm not sure if I believe that explanation personally, but the first is quite enough to explain the phenomena anyway.

 

And takato, you're right, but you don't know why you're right, and your holier-than-thou attitude makes your replies worse than being wrong and thinking you're right.


Edited by IzzyAxel - 11/12/12 at 2:14pm
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post #20 of 36
11/12/12 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyAxel View Post

You're forgetting that a headphone's listed impedance is RMS, you need to look at the impedance curve to understand why amplifier upgrades can change sound signatures, and why this phenomena isn't exhibited on some headphones. (when the plot is a flat line)  This can change elements of the sound to a limited degree of course, but if a certain point on the graph is higher than the listed RMS, and your amp is just barely able to power the headphones, that one section of frequencies may not be getting enough power.  Also true with high output impedance amps and the damping factor for each frequency whose impedance is over the RMS.  The other common explanation is that higher voltage fed into the coil results in a higher powered magnetic field, which yes, does increase volume but also deepens the maximum excursion depth.  I'm not sure if I believe that explanation personally, but the first is quite enough to explain the phenomena anyway.

 

And takato, you're right, but you don't know why you're right, and your holier-than-thou attitude makes your replies worse than being wrong and thinking you're right.

 

What's RMS stand for other than root mean square—and if it's root mean square, that concept doesn't apply to impedance and I think you're looking for a different word...?

 

For many headphones, certain ranges, some people seem to be overly concerned with damping factor, amplifier output impedance.  Actually, I'm not even sure where to begin with this response.  The above paragraph is really confusing me, at least with "RMS" in the way it is now.  In lieu of repeating things again and again, you (by that, I mean anyone) can try reading here, for starters:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/607282/headphone-amp-impedance-matching-basics-you-need-to-know

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post #21 of 36
11/12/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

 

What's RMS stand for other than root mean square—and if it's root mean square, that concept doesn't apply to impedance and I think you're looking for a different word...?

 

For many headphones, certain ranges, some people seem to be overly concerned with damping factor, amplifier output impedance.  Actually, I'm not even sure where to begin with this response.  The above paragraph is really confusing me, at least with "RMS" in the way it is now.  In lieu of repeating things again and again, you (by that, I mean anyone) can try reading here, for starters:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/607282/headphone-amp-impedance-matching-basics-you-need-to-know

Then according to that writeup I mean nominal.  I could have sworn RMS was used to derive that figure they give...

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post #22 of 36
11/12/12 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

 

Jesus mother****ing CHRIST you're stupid.

 

I'm telling you I hear clearly audible differences at identical volumes. Every user on this forum will agree with me. You will realize you're being a complete idiot when you actually get a headphone that's hard to drive. Regardless of research, if you don't test something yourself, you have no credibility, ESPECIALLY not when you're contradicting everything anyone has said, ever. Not that you actually DID research, because I did, and everything I've seen doesn't match your claims.

 

And what the hell is a K240 Pro? That doesn't exist.

 

I just explained to you why you are wrong with nothing but technical facts, and you haven't provided any contradictory evidence. And I am stupid?

Please explain how an amplifier affects the "rhythm" of the music, when slew rates are fast enough, and the damping factor is high enough to not make any audible difference.

 

As for the k240 pro's: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/555359-REG/AKG_2058_Z_00190_K_240_MK_II.html

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Thank you, very much.

 

I was a juat a tad upset that no one actually answered my question tongue.gif

 

If you actually read my post you'd know he repeated what I said about the output impedance being too high with the E9. So you're welcome, idiot.


Edited by Eisenhower - 11/12/12 at 3:34pm
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post #23 of 36
11/12/12 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyAxel View Post

You're forgetting that a headphone's listed impedance is RMS, you need to look at the impedance curve to understand why amplifier upgrades can change sound signatures, and why this phenomena isn't exhibited on some headphones. (when the plot is a flat line)  This can change elements of the sound to a limited degree of course, but if a certain point on the graph is higher than the listed RMS, and your amp is just barely able to power the headphones, that one section of frequencies may not be getting enough power.  Also true with high output impedance amps and the damping factor for each frequency whose impedance is over the RMS.  The other common explanation is that higher voltage fed into the coil results in a higher powered magnetic field, which yes, does increase volume but also deepens the maximum excursion depth.  I'm not sure if I believe that explanation personally, but the first is quite enough to explain the phenomena anyway.

 

And takato, you're right, but you don't know why you're right, and your holier-than-thou attitude makes your replies worse than being wrong and thinking you're right.

 

Apparently you don't know why he's "right" either, because RMS is not applied to impedance specifications. And what you said about how voltage "deepens the maximum excursion depth" is actually just how a diaphragm produces more volume (increased amplitude), which is what I've been saying. It doesn't improve the "pace rhythm and timing" or some such nonsense.

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post #24 of 36
11/12/12 at 3:15pm
Quote:

 

Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

 

Apparently you don't know why he's "right" either, because RMS is not applied to impedance specifications. And what you said about how voltage "deepens the maximum excursion depth" is actually just how a diaphragm produces more volume (increased amplitude), which is what I've been saying. It doesn't improve the "pace rhythm and timing" or some such nonsense.

 

First, you didn't read my reply to mikeaj, I meant nominal, I thought RMS was used here, but it wasn't.  And no an amp will not improve PRaT.  PRaT isn't something magical, it's the combination of attack speed and decay speed, which is inherent to a driver design.  And let me clarify for takato too, PRaT isn't a headphone's rhythm, it's the emphasis it places on the transients of notes and drums  And, Eisenhower, again, you failed to read, I was not giving the excursion depth example because I believed it, let me quote myself:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by IzzyAxel View Post

The other common explanation is that higher voltage fed into the coil results in a higher powered magnetic field, which yes, does increase volume but also deepens the maximum excursion depth.  I'm not sure if I believe that explanation personally, but the first is quite enough to explain the phenomena anyway.


Edited by IzzyAxel - 11/12/12 at 3:18pm
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post #25 of 36
11/12/12 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyAxel View Post

 

 

First, you didn't read my reply to mikeaj, I meant nominal, I thought RMS was used here, but it wasn't.  And no an amp will not improve PRaT.  PRaT isn't something magical, it's the combination of attack speed and decay speed, which is inherent to a driver design.  And let me clarify for takato too, PRaT isn't a headphone's rhythm, it's the emphasis it places on the transients of notes and drums  And, Eisenhower, again, you failed to read, I was not giving the excursion depth example because I believed it, let me quote myself:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by IzzyAxel View Post

The other common explanation is that higher voltage fed into the coil results in a higher powered magnetic field, which yes, does increase volume but also deepens the maximum excursion depth.  I'm not sure if I believe that explanation personally, but the first is quite enough to explain the phenomena anyway.

Yeah I did read your reply, but you originally responded to me, saying that I was "forgetting that a headphone's impedance is listed as RMS". It doesn't matter if that value is nominal, the reason they tell you it is so you can pick a proper amplifier using that specification. You are supposed to use an amplifier with an 8 times lower output impedance in part to account for the headphone's impedance v.s. frequency fluctuations which I assume you are talking about it. 

I am well aware that PRaT is not magical, and I stated precisely why an amplifier won't affect it. A headphone driver is extremely lightweight, and hence no amplifier will improve the transients via damping.

I didn't fail to read anything... making a claim and then saying you are not sure of it, doesn't mean I can't reject it, especially when you clearly think I am incorrect.


Edited by Eisenhower - 11/12/12 at 3:36pm
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post #26 of 36
11/12/12 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

Yeah I did read your reply, but you originally responded to me, saying that I was "forgetting that a headphone's impedance is listed as RMS". It doesn't matter if that value is nominal, the reason they tell you it is so you can pick a proper amplifier using that specification. You are supposed to use an amplifier with an 8 times lower output impedance in part to account for the headphone's impedance v.s. frequency fluctuations which I assume you are talking about it. 

I am well aware that PRaT is not magical, and I stated precisely why an amplifier won't affect it. A headphone driver is extremely lightweight, and hence no amplifier will improve the transients via damping.

I didn't fail to read anything... making a claim and then saying you are not sure of it, doesn't mean I can't reject it, especially when you clearly think I am incorrect.

I think you're only partially incorrect.  The math is fine, but since the impedance is a curve, some headphones will have much higher and lower impedances @ certain frequencies than the nominal figure, which yes, is what the factor of 8 is for, to allow sufficient damping, but impedance also dictates how much voltage is required by the headphone to correctly output/produce that frequency.  If you've got insufficient voltage for some frequencies but not others, the frequency response of the headphone can change, or will clip.

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post #27 of 36
11/12/12 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyAxel View Post

I think you're only partially incorrect.  The math is fine, but since the impedance is a curve, some headphones will have much higher and lower impedances @ certain frequencies than the nominal figure, which yes, is what the factor of 8 is for, to allow sufficient damping, but impedance also dictates how much voltage is required by the headphone to correctly output/produce that frequency.  If you've got insufficient voltage for some frequencies but not others, the frequency response of the headphone can change, or will clip.

 

The impedance is a function of frequency, may be different at different frequencies, as you say.

 

But considerations of impedance with regards to frequency are already accounted for, if you're looking at the frequency response of the headphones.  Those plots are generated with some nominal voltage level, the same for all frequencies, hopefully using an amp with minimal output impedance so the voltage into the headphones is consistent across frequency.  Anyway, you don't end up with insufficient voltage at some frequencies but not at others.  That's not how it works.

 

 

Root mean square is a statistic of a signal, the square root of the mean of the squared values.  For an AC signal, the value over time changes; rms value may be of interest to describe the tendency or shape of the signal, or more practically, for energy or power calculations.  An impedance is not a signal.  To confuse this highly implies you've never done RMS calculations, had to use it for anything.  Now you know, hopefully.

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post #28 of 36
11/12/12 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyAxel View Post

I think you're only partially incorrect.  The math is fine, but since the impedance is a curve, some headphones will have much higher and lower impedances @ certain frequencies than the nominal figure, which yes, is what the factor of 8 is for, to allow sufficient damping, but impedance also dictates how much voltage is required by the headphone to correctly output/produce that frequency.  If you've got insufficient voltage for some frequencies but not others, the frequency response of the headphone can change, or will clip.

If you have insufficient voltage (aka gain), your headphones will not get loud enough. As a matter of fact, headphone manufacturers are starting to quote sensitivities in dB/V, rather than dB/mW, because headphone amplifiers are voltage sources (typically). There was a thread about it here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/168037/db-per-milliwhat-efficiency-vs-sensitivity-vs-how-loud-do-they-really-go .

Increasing the voltage is basically multiplying the headphone's frequency response by a scalar (assuming the headphone amp has a flat response, which most do).

I could be wrong, but it sounds like you are actually just describing the frequency response itself according to http://www.avguide.com/blog/why-headphone-amps-sound-different-frequency-responseimpedance-issues, and not a change in the headphone's frequency response.

 

If you have insufficient current, then the frequency response can change because your amplifier cannot produce the flow of electricity desired by the headphone. This is why having a low output impedance is so desirable, low impedance = low resistance = more current capacity. Likewise, a high impedance headphone draws less current. Because the E7 has a sub 1 ohm output impedance, buying a new more powerful amplifier will not change the frequency response of his K240's, it will only make them louder...

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Jesus mother****ing CHRIST you're stupid.

 

I'm telling you I hear clearly audible differences at identical volumes. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

 

 They don't seem to get much better from my E7 as opposed to my iPhone or my laptop...

LOL.

Edited by Eisenhower - 11/12/12 at 5:33pm
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post #29 of 36
11/12/12 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Jesus mother****ing CHRIST you're stupid.

 

I'm telling you I hear clearly audible differences at identical volumes. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

 

 They don't seem to get much better from my E7 as opposed to my iPhone or my laptop...

LOL.

Wrong headphone, idiot. I was talking about my SE-700. Did you even READ my post?

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post #30 of 36
11/12/12 at 6:41pm

Takato, I understand you disagree with Eisenhower, but that's no reason to be rude. 

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