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Resonessence Labs Concero discussion/review thead - Page 140

post #2086 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
 

 

You could, but you'd be running the signal through the Concero HP's amp as well...so unless you don't mind "double amping" it would work. I find the beauty of the HP is the all-in-one desktop solution for when space is really limited.


I only have a basic level of electronics knowledge so correct me if I'm wrong on this. Don't both the HD and HP require amplification after the DAC so you're not really "double amping" with the HP, it's just that the gain is higher so you have to deal with a volume pot that will potentially color and/or degrade the sound and get the volume set right?

post #2087 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero View Post
 


I only have a basic level of electronics knowledge so correct me if I'm wrong on this. Don't both the HD and HP require amplification after the DAC so you're not really "double amping" with the HP, it's just that the gain is higher so you have to deal with a volume pot that will potentially color and/or degrade the sound and get the volume set right?



If that's the case that would be interesting, but doesn't the Concerp HD have slightly different guts than the HP? I thought that the HP had additional headphone amps in the circuit.

But, what is the potential problem with double amping anyway? I imagine it would be a bigger problem when you are using two different kinds of amps. Like, say you want to use a tube amp, but the concero uses a solid state amp, so you're using two different types of amplification in the chain, coloring the sound into two different directions. But who knows, maybe certain combinations of solid and tube amps would produce great results, I haven't played with it as I don't own any tube amps yet.

I personally find that sound quality depends a lot on the quality of the DAC and the quality of the digital file being played, and the amping is a bit secondary, although it still needs to be done properly. As someone mentioned a few pages back, they were under the impression that amps are what's responsible for things like how deep the bass extends, until the Concero showed them that their amps were capable of reaching even deeper than they thought before. The quality of the DAC is ultimately super important, and a double-amp pairing with a great dac-amp is obviously better than a single amp setup with a crappy DAC. I'm just wondering what exactly the qualitative differences would be between the sound of a Concero HD and HP when connected to an external amp. If it's the case that there are differences, but the concero HP gets 95% of the way there, that wouldn't bother me at all or make it difficult to choose between them. I personally think that if the differences with external amps are minimal, the Concero HP is actually the more flexible unit, since it can be used with headphones while still retaining the ability to sound great with an external amp.


Edited by VladTheImpala - 6/13/15 at 1:20pm
post #2088 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by gepardcv View Post

I have tried the Hugo, and couldn't get past its ergonomics. You cannot control its headphone output volume and use fixed level RCA output at the same time. So if I want to plug IEMs into the Hugo and also run its DAC output to an electrostatic rig, no dice. For the price, it's not an acceptable tradeoff for my use case.

I own both
I bought The Hugo After that i heard it and compared to my conceroHD (not hp)
I think the hugo sounds much better and the bigger issue of the concero is lacking of bass compared to the hugo.
Anyway the hd is much better built and solid, and it's very good
In fact I didn't sell it and I'm using it as a spdif transporter to the hugo
And the sound is awesome!
Enjoy your music
post #2089 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero View Post
 


I only have a basic level of electronics knowledge so correct me if I'm wrong on this. Don't both the HD and HP require amplification after the DAC so you're not really "double amping" with the HP, it's just that the gain is higher so you have to deal with a volume pot that will potentially color and/or degrade the sound and get the volume set right?

 

Nope...the HP has a built in headphone amplifier (and thus does not require amplification) while the HD is exclusively a DAC.

post #2090 of 2097
Thread Starter 

It's not technically a problem to use Concero HP via 1/4" to RCA adapter. Set volume to appropriate levels and it sounds great, though it does lose out to Concero HD in two areas.

 

First, aesthetically. It just doesn't look as neat and orderly with a cable going from the headphone jack to... wherever else it might need to go. Best to keep that stuff all around back, which Concero HD does.

 

Second, it takes a penalty in the form of SNR and other specs. Not a massive penalty, but it's there. And to my ears it is noticeable if not a deal breaker. I used Concero HP for a month in my desktop rig with Adam Audio active monitors and it did a very credible job, so it's not like you can't enjoy the experience. BUT - for dedicated DAC duties I do recommend the HD instead. So you gotta examine your usage needs and go from there. 

 

Compared to Hugo, the Concero HP and HD don't fall that far behind. Hugo does have superior detail retrieval and an overall "larger", more believable sound. The delta is not huge though. I think if you never intend to use Hugo as a portable, and you don't need all the extra input/output options, the Concero models are likely a better choice for most people. I do love Hugo for SQ but the ergonomics frustrate me to no end. 

post #2091 of 2097

thank you guys for your input on the Hugo vs the Concero. I plan to buy the Hugo very soon, but I won't get rid of the Concero till and only if I'm satisfied with the price vs performance of the Hugo.

post #2092 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
 

 

Nope...the HP has a built in headphone amplifier (and thus does not require amplification) while the HD is exclusively a DAC.


Yes, but doesn't the HD require an amplification stage after the DAC to increase the output to 2V. I remember having this conversation with Justin from HeadAmp years with regards to the Pico DAC/Amp but it's been a long time and maybe the Sabre DAC's work differently.

post #2093 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWahl View Post
 

I've used the HP in such a way with no problem.  The biggest difference is at max volume, it will put out a 4v signal.  It's not an extra output stage compared to the HD, Just higher output with lower impedance.

 

+1. No such thing as double amping. HP is exactly the same as HD and the only difference is the higher gain. People have to tune down the volume because 4v could be too "hot" for many amp. 

post #2094 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero View Post
 


Yes, but doesn't the HD require an amplification stage after the DAC to increase the output to 2V. I remember having this conversation with Justin from HeadAmp years with regards to the Pico DAC/Amp but it's been a long time and maybe the Sabre DAC's work differently.

 

Correct, the HD does need a separate amp; while the HP does not.

post #2095 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
 

 

Correct, the HD does need a separate amp; while the HP does not.


Huh??? That's not what I said at all.

 

Let me clarify, I'm talking about in the circuit itself not a separate amplifier. It's been my understanding that a typical DAC requires an amplification stage after the DAC itself to bring the gain up to the 2V. When adding a headphone output the difference is the gain is higher and it has a volume control of some sort so really you're not double amping, it's just one has higher gain and volume control so the volume has to be set properly for optimal output.

post #2096 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero View Post
 


Huh??? That's not what I said at all.

 

Let me clarify, I'm talking about in the circuit itself not a separate amplifier. It's been my understanding that a typical DAC requires an amplification stage after the DAC itself to bring the gain up to the 2V. When adding a headphone output the difference is the gain is higher and it has a volume control of some sort so really you're not double amping, it's just one has higher gain and volume control so the volume has to be set properly for optimal output.

 

You are correct.

post #2097 of 2097
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero View Post
 


Huh??? That's not what I said at all.

 

Let me clarify, I'm talking about in the circuit itself not a separate amplifier. It's been my understanding that a typical DAC requires an amplification stage after the DAC itself to bring the gain up to the 2V. When adding a headphone output the difference is the gain is higher and it has a volume control of some sort so really you're not double amping, it's just one has higher gain and volume control so the volume has to be set properly for optimal output.

 

[ EDIT: I see what you mean now.  It only depends on the DAC chips output level.  Some can have a high enough level straight off the chip and maybe only require a buffer.  You can really have as many or few "stages" as you want, however as gain is increased, noise and distortion is also.  As well as possibly less transparency from additional parts in signal path. ]


To answer your question as intended, copied from Resonessence Labs' Website:

 

Specifications

  CONCERO CONCERO HD CONCERO HP  
DSD64/DSD128 No Yes Yes  
Bit Width 24 24 24 Bits at Input*
Sample rate (max) 384 352.8 352.8 kS/s
Output Level 1.2 2 3.5 (at 0dB) VRMS
Output Impedance 300 75 2.2 Ohms
THD+Noise <0.005, 86 <0.001, 100 <0.001, 100 %,dB
Dynamic Range >104 >112   dB A-Weighted
Hum and Noise     <3.4 uV A-Weighted
Power 32 ohms     270, 91 mW, THD+N dB
Power 60 ohms     206, 94 mW, THD+N dB
Power 300 ohms     45, 102 mW, THD+N dB
Power 600 ohms     22.75, 102

mW, THD+N dB
 

 

 

It appears I was incorrect about the HP, it is 3.5v at max.  But the HD is 2v, while the original is 1.2v.  Therefore, for the HD you already have your 2v.  


Edited by JWahl - 6/14/15 at 9:18pm
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