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post #1201 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by jexby View Post  foreground:

my comments about HE-500 and driving them are not entirely measurement based, as in the HE-500 thread there are plenty of seasoned folks (well beyond me) recommending that to "make the HE-500 shine, get an amp that provides more than 1W."  Fang may have noted this himself?

hence my initial comments about "lack of power".

 

You have a point in that the Concero HP may not be the absolute optimal rig for an HE-500; a lot of people will say that the HE-500 responds much better to serious power, and there are people powering their HE-500s with very, very powerful amps. However, I personally don't subscribe to the "MOAR POWER" philosophy for powering planars; the fact that planars' load impedance is almost purely resistive actually makes the math pretty simple --- most planars are not actually that difficult to drive. IIRC (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), but I think the 1W recommendation was specifically for the HE-6? My memory is hazy. The most important thing is whether or not the HP makes your HE-500 sound good to you, so I agree that it's a good idea to actually try the HE-500 with the HP personally.

post #1202 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

 

You have a point in that the Concero HP may not be the absolute optimal rig for an HE-500; a lot of people will say that the HE-500 responds much better to serious power, and there are people powering their HE-500s with very, very powerful amps. However, I personally don't subscribe to the "MOAR POWER" philosophy for powering planars; the fact that planars' load impedance is almost purely resistive actually makes the math pretty simple --- most planars are not actually that difficult to drive. IIRC (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), but I think the 1W recommendation was specifically for the HE-6? My memory is hazy. The most important thing is whether or not the HP makes your HE-500 sound good to you, so I agree that it's a good idea to actually try the HE-500 with the HP personally.

 

I know that 1W was recommended by Audeze for the LCD-2.  This was to make sure there was enough overhead for any dynamic spikes which could be quite a bit higher than the average for just a few notes.  They explained it better on their website than I can.  

 

While I am exceedingly pleased with the M8 + HD800, especially with the Concero + Bottlehead S.E.X. as a reference, it would still be fun to hear the Concero HP sometime.  

post #1203 of 1874

Is this what you were referring to?

 

Quote from http://support.audeze.com/entries/20866002-Selecting-an-amp-:

When deciding what amp to buy It is very subjective and opinions vary a lot. Here are some thoughts on selecting a good amplifiers for LCD-2. We have tested the LCD-2 with quite a number of studios and recording engineers. The LCD-2 has an impedance of 50 ohms, which is purely resistive and is almost perfectly flat across the entire frequency range. Lets us say you listen to symphony-orchestra. This type of music can have dynamic range of 60 dB. i.e if silence (room noise) is at 60 dB (LCD-2 is pen type headphone design with almost no attenuation of ambient noise) and the maximum occasional peak needs to be 120 dB. I am just giving an example here, but depending upon the type of music and the recording this varies. 120 dB is very loud - almost Rock Concert level close to the speaker. For the LCD-2, if you put 1 mw of power, you get about 90dB output. For this example, let us assume 90dB is the level you listen normally. To reproduce the occasional 120 dB peak without clipping on the LCD-2, the amplifier would have to output 1000 times more power than 1mw, i.e 1 W. So, an amplifier that can output 1w is the bare minimum. Amplifiers will have distortion metrics at different wattage levels. If an amp can output maximum 1w it would be barely sufficient and might have a lot of distortion at full output. So I would suggest an Amp that would at least be able to provide a couple of watts of output without any clipping. Damping in amplifiers is not a big problem for LCD-2 since the impedance doesn't vary.

 

So, for the HE-500 to be output with zero distortion at 120 dB with a typical level of 90 dB, you'll need at least 2.04 W power, which the HiFi-M8 is also incapable of delivering (peak power is 1.4W, while typical is 1W)?

 

Well, perhaps some people do this, but I shudder at the thought of listening to headphones at 90-120 dB... I prefer to listen at much lower levels. For peoples' sake in hearing, I'd recommend not powering things to no more than 90 dB peak level, maybe 100 dB at the absolute most (a level at which the HE-500 would require 20.4 mW). Remember, both OSHA and NIOSH "safe" limits for A-weighted SPL exposure levels are at 85 dB for work hour lengths of time.

post #1204 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

 

So, for the HE-500 to be output with zero distortion at 120 dB with a typical level of 90 dB, you'll need at least 2.04 W power, which the HiFi-M8 is also incapable of delivering (peak power is 1.4W, while typical is 1W)?

 

 

Well, perhaps some people do this, but I shudder at the thought of listening to headphones at 90-120 dB... I prefer to listen at much lower levels. For peoples' sake in hearing, I'd recommend not powering things to no more than 90 dB peak level, maybe 100 dB at the absolute most (a level at which the HE-500 would require 20.4 mW). Remember, both OSHA and NIOSH "safe" limits for A-weighted SPL exposure levels are at 85 dB for work hour lengths of time.

 

1.  I concur about seeing the 1.4W (typical 1W?) specs for the M8.

assuming (uh oh) that those numbers apply to a 38ohm headphone like the HE-500.

yet the Concero HP at 32 ohms shows 270 mW.  4x less than M8 eh?  (hence my original post)

 

1a.  if HE-500 only needs 20.4mW of power to achieve those volumes "well" (very subjective), I have no clue why Head-fiers (and Fang) are constantly recommending 1W or hooking up to more powerful amps like a Lyr, etc.

and indeed the Concero HP would have 10x the mW to drive HE-500 volumes.

 

1b.  that 20.4mW value means almost every cheap, portable amp on the market could power them sufficiently.  allbeit, maybe not well/clear/concise.  maybe that's the difference we are trying to discern here:  power to be able to hear audio vs. power to be able to hear clear/precise/full audio?

 

2.  not suggesting that myself (nor anyone) would listen to those 90-120dB volumes for long periods at all.  believe it's more about the ability to achieve quality sound with dynamic swings, even for shorter durations.

 

Not claiming moar power is everything, but having it certainly seems to open up HE-500s to better quality as reported in other threads.

have to bow out as I'm neither an Concero HP expert nor HE-500 apparently.

post #1205 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by jexby View Post
 

 

1.  I concur about seeing the 1.4W (typical 1W?) specs for the M8.

assuming (uh oh) that those numbers apply to a 38ohm headphone like the HE-500.

yet the Concero HP at 32 ohms shows 270 mW.  4x less than M8 eh?  (hence my original post)

 

1a.  if HE-500 only needs 20.4mW of power to achieve those volumes "well" (very subjective), I have no clue why Head-fiers (and Fang) are constantly recommending 1W or hooking up to more powerful amps like a Lyr, etc.

and indeed the Concero HP would have 10x the mW to drive HE-500 volumes.

 

1b.  that 20.4mW value means almost every cheap, portable amp on the market could power them sufficiently.  allbeit, maybe not well/clear/concise.  maybe that's the difference we are trying to discern here:  power to be able to hear audio vs. power to be able to hear clear/precise/full audio?

 

2.  not suggesting that myself (nor anyone) would listen to those 90-120dB volumes for long periods at all.  believe it's more about the ability to achieve quality sound with dynamic swings, even for shorter durations.

 

Not claiming moar power is everything, but having it certainly seems to open up HE-500s to better quality as reported in other threads.

have to bow out as I'm neither an Concero HP expert nor HE-500 apparently.

 

It's all about how loud you're willing to get these headphones up to. Technically, we're getting a little OT in that it's not really about the Concero HP (or any other Concero model) or even the HiFi-M8 anymore, but I want to make clear that I'm not trying to "defend" the HP against its power shortcomings. It is designed to deliver power within the amount of power it can draw from USB (yes, that's 2.5 W, but that's just insane to expect sustained power draw like that) and transform that power into sound that's as clean and coherent as possible. If that means power delivery is short of peoples' expectations, then so be it.

 

For the sound pressure levels that I listen at, it's sufficient (as I mentioned, I try to keep within 100 dB maximum), but there are people who do want loud, undistorted transient dynamics, and in the name of hi-fi, that's what it's all about: to power your headphones/earphones/speakers as loud as you want without any trouble at any SPL (even ones that quickly induce hearing loss).

 

Also, in the spirit of Fletcher and Munson, humans naturally prefer things louder, so being able to drive things louder without distorting is an appealing aspect of amplifiers. (That's not to say that your ears will actually care --- the cochlea will introduce lots of its own distorting effects into our hearing system at loud SPLs >100 dB, but this is not a matter that we should get into, lest it turn into a massively controversial discussion)

 

Back to our original discussion, my personal, subjective feeling is that the HP sounds nicer than the HiFi-M8 at the volumes I listen at, on my own earphones (mostly sensitive IEM/CIEMs) and on a HD600 and HD800 tested. That's not to say that if I crank up the volume beyond what I like, the HiFi-M8 won't outperform the Concero HP in terms of power delivery (actually that's a given, it will outperform it), but subjectively, at my relatively "quiet" listening levels, I find the Concero HP to be my pick of the two.

post #1206 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

 

Back to our original discussion, my personal, subjective feeling is that the HP sounds nicer than the HiFi-M8 at the volumes I listen at, on my own earphones (mostly sensitive IEM/CIEMs) and on a HD600 and HD800 tested. That's not to say that if I crank up the volume beyond what I like, the HiFi-M8 won't outperform the Concero HP in terms of power delivery (actually that's a given, it will outperform it), but subjectively, at my relatively "quiet" listening levels, I find the Concero HP to be my pick of the two.

 

Agreed, let's steer back OT.  I certainly do appreciate folks like yourself providing direct comparisons (and preferences!) between these two.  

it's rare since the M8 has barely been shipping and Concero HP is so new.

 

 

I've been interested in the Concero "regular DAC" for awhile, to see how it compares to others.  especially with just (sometimes noisy) USB power to drive them.  ;-)

yet there have been nothing but raves about the Concero line, yours included.

 

Hope to hear them myself one day.

 

Since your profile/.sig don't mention what IEMs you enjoy with the Concero HP, would be interested in knowing any other specific sonic flavors with the HP sometime.

cheers.

post #1207 of 1874
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Dangerous View Post
 

I prefer the sound of the original Concero. The HD/HP has a smidge more energy up top which isn't optimal in my rig.

 

...I think.

 

Gotta give the HD another thorough go-round just to be sure.

 

Tough call. The HD is more energetic up top which is generally interpreted as "more detail" (especially in blind testing), but overall I don't hear a night-and-day difference between them. If I could somehow negate the upper-end personality difference I'd say the HD is *slightly* better at instrument separation/clarity. All things considered, it's just too close to call. Some tracks sound better on the original, some on the HD.

 

I'm sticking with the original Concero w/my Decware CSP2+ and considering an HP for portable duty. Both are amazing overachievers.

post #1208 of 1874

So since the whole Concero family is being discussed here, what about the Herus?  Impressions and questions here or a new thread?  It is up on the Resonessence website and apparently for purchase at RMAF.  Anyone here go to RMAF and hear one?

 

Project86, are you going to get one for review?  Would love to see what $350 would get me from Resonessence, and in comparison to what $800 would get me from the HP.  $350 seems like a lot for something so little, but the GEEK is going to retail for $299 when it is released, and the Dragonfly only recently dropped to $200.  Would also like to know how the Herus would handle IEMs.  

 

At this point, I might need something specifically for IEMs, and something for my full size cans.  Very few products seem to be able to handle both well.

post #1209 of 1874
Thread Starter 
I think Herus just barely became available last week. They were going to send one over for me to check out, but I told them to hold off until after RMAF because I was out of town anyway. Not sure if it will get a full review or not - I don't have experience with the competition like Explorer, Dragonfly, etc, and to do a proper review I'd have to scope out the competition. We will see.
post #1210 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by project86 View Post

I think Herus just barely became available last week. They were going to send one over for me to check out, but I told them to hold off until after RMAF because I was out of town anyway. Not sure if it will get a full review or not - I don't have experience with the competition like Explorer, Dragonfly, etc, and to do a proper review I'd have to scope out the competition. We will see.

 

Same here. I didn't review the Herus because I don't have anything else to compare it with, nor any IEM's to use.

 

All I know is that it looks good, is competitively priced, lacks the IIR/apodizing filters, and is noticeably outclassed by (and thus not recommended for use with) the HD800.

 

I'm sure someone with more travel/portable rig experience will eventually toss in their 2c...

post #1211 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Dangerous View Post
 

 

Same here. I didn't review the Herus because I don't have anything else to compare it with, nor any IEM's to use.

 

All I know is that it looks good, is competitively priced, lacks the IIR/apodizing filters, and is noticeably outclassed by (and thus not recommended for use with) the HD800.

 

I'm sure someone with more travel/portable rig experience will eventually toss in their 2c...

Well if it can't do well with the HD800, then not on my list.  Did you test it out, or did Resonessence say something?  Thanks.

post #1212 of 1874
It's pretty damn good with HD800, but then I was only using it from my galaxy s3 at the time. Yet to use my laptop.
post #1213 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by FraGGleR View Post
 

Well if it can't do well with the HD800, then not on my list.  Did you test it out, or did Resonessence say something?  Thanks.

 

I demoed it in rotation with the Concero/HD/HP. The Herus isn't a suitable choice for the HD800 in my opinion. If you're going to go portable with a $1500 pair of headphones, the HP is the ticket.

post #1214 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Dangerous View Post
 

 

I demoed it in rotation with the Concero/HD/HP. The Herus isn't a suitable choice for the HD800 in my opinion. If you're going to go portable with a $1500 pair of headphones, the HP is the ticket.

Can you give your impressions of the sound?  How did it hold up against its siblings?

 

I'm primarily interested in it as a DAC, with a run to an external amp.  That's one of the stated uses on Resonessence Labs' site and it would certainly solve any issues with the 800s (which I don't own :( ).

 

Thanks!

 

-Pie

post #1215 of 1874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Dangerous View Post
 

 

I demoed it in rotation with the Concero/HD/HP. The Herus isn't a suitable choice for the HD800 in my opinion. If you're going to go portable with a $1500 pair of headphones, the HP is the ticket.

Thanks.  I'm not looking to go portable per se, just best performance per square inch.  I am on a huge minimalist kick (minimalism that allows for an HD800 :)).  Right now, I'm not sure I can do better than my HifiM8 for an all-arounder.

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