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Battle Of The Flagships (58 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: AUDEZ'E LCD-2 Revision 2 (6/4/13) - Page 49

post #721 of 4919

No, I have no issues with your review methodology. It is by far some of the best writing I've read. I am simply curious about the audiogram, because I don't have perfect hearing myself. Yes, I have posted my audiogram on this site before. (I'm at 5dBHL @ 250Hz, 15dBHL @1KHz, to -5dBHL @ 4KHz) I apologize if my comment seemed off-putting at first.

 

So in my case, I need the reviewer audiogram to make a proper assessment, otherwise the review is not as helpful to me. There's been a case where I've bought blind due to reviewer comments, only for me to send the headphone back. I also have an asymmetrical head, meaning that placement is completely paramount for proper stereo imaging. In my experience, only the K1000 (which I listened to at a meet) could accurately image anything for me.

post #722 of 4919

what I love and find hilarious is combination of the unusualness and the promising educational value of the request 


Edited by Moostrkraaft - 11/9/12 at 9:13pm
post #723 of 4919
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

I'm not saying its a strange request, but its definitely unique.  I don't recall ever seeing a reviewer post a personal audiogram in any review.  It seems in the way you asked me to do so, that you take issue with my review, or at least my perception of neutral.  If and when I have my hearing tested again, I will ask the audiologist to supply a sheet for me to take home.  Another way to assess my review is to consider any headphone I reviewed and utilize your perception of that headphone from your own ears as a point of comparison.  So if you hear a headphone which I describe as bright, as neutral, then you can have a sense of what other headphones may sound like.

But anyway, if I remember correctly, the last time I had my hearing tested was very late last year or early this year.  It was either in 1 or 2dBHL increments (not 5). I didn't take home a chart with me.  My hearing was close to flat on both ears, though I believe my left ear is slightly better at hearing low mids, while my right ear is better at highs...we're talking about a max of 2 db differences.  Overall, I recall my audiologist saying that my hearing was especially good for my age.  I have also confirmed that I can hear frequencies up to about 20khz.

 

David, I'd like you to take your clothes off and show us...

 

No, never mind.  biggrin.gif

post #724 of 4919
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

I'm not sure I understand the question exactly.  Do you mean, for what price would the SA5000 be top class with regards to detail retrieval?

Yup, that is what I mean :P

 

You said the 507 was the best in resolution at the price. I know SA5000 can't match an electrostat, so I would like to know, with the exception of electrostats, where does the resolution of SA5000 compared to other headphones.

post #725 of 4919
Quote:
Originally Posted by colgatetotal View PostNo, I have no issues with your review methodology. It is by far some of the best writing I've read. I am simply curious about the audiogram, because I don't have perfect hearing myself. Yes, I have posted my audiogram on this site before. (I'm at 5dBHL @ 250Hz, 15dBHL @1KHz, to -5dBHL @ 4KHz) I apologize if my comment seemed off-putting at first.

 

So in my case, I need the reviewer audiogram to make a proper assessment, otherwise the review is not as helpful to me. There's been a case where I've bought blind due to reviewer comments, only for me to send the headphone back. I also have an asymmetrical head, meaning that placement is completely paramount for proper stereo imaging. In my experience, only the K1000 (which I listened to at a meet) could accurately image anything for me.


But...

 

Someone can have highly affected hearing and still be able to determine 'flat' or 'neutral'.  My hearing varies dramatically between my right and left ears; one is a bit V-like and the other a bit like a bell shaped curve.  Yet I'd always prided myself in being able to use a sine sweep or pink noise (better when both) and eq most pairs of speaker to 'flat' within one or two Db across the spectrum using just my ears (not that that's always the most 'pleasing' sounding, just a starting point).  Of course now I use a TerraSonde, but I digress...  Can I do it today however?  Likely not, because I'm way way out of practice hearing a flat pink-noise spectrum regularly.  Should I re-train my hearing however hearing, studying and memorizing what 'flat' sounds like thru a flatten'ed set of speakers, I'm sure I can get back to doing it again.  And once you do that, you can study and memorize how those speakers render actual music; and using specific tracks helps that along very well. 

 

So I'm only saying this to explain that the mind can adjust to inadequacies of one's hearing if they've come to 'learn' what flat is thru their altered imperfect non-flat sonic detectors [ear-drums :p].  And someone with imperfect hearing is still very capable of detecting even subtle frequency response abberations of a transducer; i.e. non-neutral. 

post #726 of 4919
Along the same lines as m80, I'd say it's naive to think hearing defficiency proportionaly affects one's perception of neutral, unless they're making the judgment listening to mixes / recordings that have no bearing which what they hear everyday/at concert.

Take the voice for example, you brain will adjust to make a real voice sound normal through your own hearing and listening to voices with any headphone will sound neutral only if they are actually neutral (e.g. reproduce the voice realistically in present case).

Now, indeed, we often listen to recordings we have no idea how they originally sounded like in the studio and may seldom experience sound of real instruments (not going to concerts, else amplified modern music). Under these circumstances, when defining what is a neutral headphone, there is probably good chance someone with shelved sensitivity in mid/highs will then favor a bright headphone. But it's more about imagination of what the record should sound like than working off a good reference (like voice, piano or acoustic guitar for some).
post #727 of 4919
Indeed the whole thing is far more complicated to take seriously one random people opinion (with different ears and brain and highly biased by placebo and pricing/raving expectation) resumed into poetic words seriously, thus the only thing valuable is hearing the gear blindly by yourself and troughs neutral objective measurements.

Also all headphone from even the exact same models don't sound exactly the same and drivers are always more or less mismatch because of the imperfect material and making process.

I hope OP will find audio peace one day by only using at-least 2 headphones with the same gear and stop switching and making comparisons to truly enjoy the music with your heart. biggrin.gif
Edited by Omega17TheTrue - 11/10/12 at 5:39am
post #728 of 4919

You can get to know your fellow Headfiers "ears" over time on here and can get a good idea of equipment that you haven't heard from their comments.

 

Reading Davids remarkable, mammoth overview, it doesn't take long to get an idea of his "ear" by reading about the headphones that you own and see how he finds them.  

 

We all may hear differently but it's a none starter topic. Best kept to sound science forum IYAM.

post #729 of 4919
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

 

David, I'd like you to take your clothes off and show us...

 

No, never mind.  biggrin.gif

HAHAHA:)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xymordos View Post

Yup, that is what I mean :P

 

You said the 507 was the best in resolution at the price. I know SA5000 can't match an electrostat, so I would like to know, with the exception of electrostats, where does the resolution of SA5000 compared to other headphones.

At its pricepoint (lets say around $400) it's very near the top with regards to detail retrieval.  I obviously haven't heard every $400 headphone, but I think its still fair to say this.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega17TheTrue View Post


I hope OP will find audio peace one day by only using at-least 2 headphones with the same gear and stop switching and making comparisons to truly enjoy the music with your heart. biggrin.gif

:D I can enjoy music out of standard Apple buds no problem! I know you were just kidding, but I do want to say that, for me, the headphone quest is a separate thing all together.  If sound quality was the principle factor in my enjoying of the music, I would have tossed the Charlie Parker records, the My Bloody Valentine, the Furtwangler recordings long ago:) 

 

 

 

m8o and Arnaud bring up very interesting points.  And that is that brain is very good at compensating and readapting to the degradation of the senses over time.  Obviously in extreme cases, this will not be the case, but excellent observations you both made!

post #730 of 4919

I see, but how far up before another one takes over the SA5000 (even if it is a tiny bit)? 

post #731 of 4919

Great! Great! Great! :-)

post #732 of 4919

The request to post David's personal audiogram exam, I think, would be fascinating indeed. The biology of ones own hearing is just as fascinating as the engineering of headphones and it would make this stupendous review even more enlightening... and anal retentive. I say, go for it.

post #733 of 4919

I think the pricing information about the Q701 should be corrected. The article implies they are more expensive when they're not. Great reviews!

post #734 of 4919
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidhunternyc View Post

The request to post David's personal audiogram exam, I think, would be fascinating indeed. The biology of ones own hearing is just as fascinating as the engineering of headphones and it would make this stupendous review even more enlightening... and anal retentive. I say, go for it.

You can have the best hearing in the world but that isn't that important when you are examining and describing sound quality. It is the brain that deciphers sound and then interprets it. The ear is only the tool used (like the toungue is the tool used to taste fine wine;). We then use linguistics.. well, metaphors usually to communicate this. An old sound engineer will have a far better "ear" for SQ than a young man with perfect hearing that has no experience in audio reproduction. I think it would be pretty useless for the purpose proposed. 

post #735 of 4919

Thank you for this.  I know how much work I put into writing a post that's only a few paragraphs long.  I especially appreciate your rankings by both absolute performance and performance/price.  I'm about to go big (by my modest financial standards) on a pair of headphones so the timing of your post couldn't have been better for me.  

 

I was able to borrow a pair of HD 650s from a co-worker for a few weeks.  Together with the DT 770s I already own, I'm looking forward to a delightful weekend of calibrating my listening with your reviews.

 

Thanks again.

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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › Battle Of The Flagships (58 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: AUDEZ'E LCD-2 Revision 2 (6/4/13)