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Battle Of The Flagships (58 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: AUDEZ'E LCD-2 Revision 2 (6/4/13) - Page 85

post #1261 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

MHOE, I just flipped between the LCD-2 (rev 1) and the HE6, I'd be very surprised if you found the LCD-2 to be closer to neutral (on my setup).  They both sound amazing though.

 

Rev1 is different from rev2... Rev2 have more apparent treble and better measurements (the difference especially in measurements is apparent, they measure better than HE-6 as I already assessed, you can check my comments here regarding their pdf files on innerfidelity).

 

As a very important bonus for me, I can power LCD-2 rev2 with my O2 on 1x gain = absolutely no distortion. The result is amazing, another person told me that today with Pink floyd. ,-)


Edited by MHOE - 11/24/12 at 5:48pm
post #1262 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Rev1 is different from rev2... Rev2 have more apparent treble and better measurements (the difference especially in measurements is apparent, they measure better than HE-6 as I already assessed, you can check my comments here regarding their pdf files on innerfidelity).

 

 

 

You might have missed David's view on your religious preaching of InnerFidelity's measurements; here, let me link it for ya:

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

Judging a headphone based on measurements is similar to judging a recipe without having tasted it.  You can have an excellent source of information, consider the best produce and the highest quality meat, and take into account all the small, tiny details that make a good chef a good chef.  BUT when you bite into it and you taste the food, there's no replacement for measurements and words on a page.  You could technically compare two recipes of the same dish, and based on experience you could even claim one might be better than the other, but until you taste it, it's all conjecture.  

 

Measurements of sound are different because over time you begin to develop a sense of what you like and can base your observances of measures on this, but still, you cannot YOU CANNOT say one headphone sounds better than another just by seeing a graph.  There is too much subjectivity involved.  You can literally have someone sit there with a well amped LCD-3 and then sit there with an Beats By Dre Solo HD, and in a room with 100 people, I guarantee at least a few people will say the Solo HD sounds better.  Does their opinion count?  I think so.  Is it  an informed? Probably not.  

 
post #1263 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post

 

 

You might have missed David's view on your religious preaching of InnerFidelity's measurements; here, let me link it for ya:

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I fully respect his point of view... But as you maybe registered, our views differ in some areas. Measurements are still much more objective for me than trying to rely on the other's opinion or on my flawed ears during short-time meetings.

 

I don't believe in any sort of synergy... The amp is just neutral, transparent and powerful enough to drive, or not. Headphones are just neutral and technically advanced enough, or not. No mystical powers or voodoo involved. Of course, measurements do not show everything... But I do not spend my hundreds of dollars on flawed products - they are technically great enough, or simply not good enough.


Edited by MHOE - 11/24/12 at 6:23pm
post #1264 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Well, I fully respect his point of view... But as you maybe registered, our views differ in some areas. Measurements are still much more objective for me than trying to rely on the other's opinion or on my flawed ears during short-time meetings.

 

I don't believe in any sort of synergy... The amp is just neutral, transparent and powerful enough to drive, or not. Headphones are just neutral and technically advanced enough, or not. No mystical powers or voodoo involved. Of course, measurements do not show anything... But I do not spend my hundreds of dollars on flawed products - they are technically great enough, or simply not good enough.

 

I used to make lots of inferences purely from IF measurements too (its coverage of headphones is like no other), until I went to a couple of head-fi local meets, and then everything sort of unveiled for me. I developed actual sonic preferences with regards to flagship headphones, instead of "which one has the flattest line" and now I'm able to look at measurements (IF or elsewhere) and see how they fit with what I want.

 

E.g. to my ears, LCD2r1s are way too dark, r2's are a bit too edgy in the upper treble, HE6s are a tad bright but TO MY EARS much flatter than LCD2r2s; LCD3s were just as flat but a tad darker than perfect. HE500s surprisingly were the most neutral-sounding albeit less smooth than HE6 or LCD3. Notice how those have discrepancies and similarities to IF measurements, because the compensations used in Tyll's measurements are not the same as my physiological hearing.


Edited by jerg - 11/24/12 at 6:21pm
post #1265 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post

 

I used to make lots of inferences purely from IF measurements too (its coverage of headphones is like no other), until I went to a couple of head-fi local meets, and then everything sort of unveiled for me. I developed actual sonic preferences with regards to flagship headphones, instead of "which one has the flattest line" and now I'm able to look at measurements (IF or elsewhere) and see how they fit with what I want.

 

Have you used amps with available specs to the extent like O2 have, with switchable gain resistors in order to choose the ideal one for every pair?

 

Also, have you had some reference setup with you in order to properly assess what you actually heard on those meetings? You need to compare with something already proved to be good enough...

post #1266 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

Rev1 is different from rev2... Rev2 have more apparent treble and better measurements (the difference especially in measurements is apparent, they measure better than HE-6 as I already assessed, you can check my comments here regarding their pdf files on innerfidelity).

As a very important bonus for me, I can power LCD-2 rev2 with my O2 on 1x gain = absolutely no distortion. The result is amazing, another person told me that today with Pink floyd. ,-)

Sorry to be a bit curious..but..u use a 150usd diy amp on a 1000 usd phone? I am not a guy who is into expensive stuff but really?..maybe thats why u say the lcd2 is deadneutral? I just read a headfonia review about the o2 as i was curious. And they said that allthough the o2 measured perfectly..when listen to it through the lcd 2 rev 2 u started missing things..i dont know thats true..but the comments reactin on that review was same sort as urs..so maybe.just maybe..ur lcd2 rev 2 sounds so neutral because of ur amp? Did u try a violectric v200 or a darkvoice 337 or a wooaudio wa2, a yulong a18 sabre or a shiit mjolnir to see if ur neutral lcd 2 (oops almost forgot) rev 2 is really that neutral..i know the o2 is out of this world much sound quality for the buck..but have u tried others? For instance i had another very good amp for ur money..a modded matrix m-stage..and my he500 sounded very good on it.with gain swiches on 10db.very neutral..a bit dark.big soundstage!.and i thought i couldnt get better amp for the money i wanted to spend on an amp..but then i heard a darkvoice 3322 (horribel with a he500) and then a 337 from a friend...and allthough my head said its a tube and a tube is no good for electro dynamic phones..my ears melted completely..but i have to be honest..at first i didnt..it had rca powertubes in it..And i hated it..but after changin the power tubes for svetlana's and a pair tung sols for the drivers..the he500 just sang to me..but thats my opinion..i loved how the he500 sounded on my mstage..i really did..also a amp who measures well as far i can remember...and now i have a 337.. And i reaaly didnt like tube amos as they color the sound to much..but somehow..this amp is very neutral..so my he500 can show all he got..next meet i will be plugging lcd2 rev3? and a lcd3 onto my rig..just to see hie good it is..on my rig..who kows..maybe i will buy one..but first my ears have to believe it..all power to my ears..biggrin.gif
Edited by hifimanrookie - 11/24/12 at 6:28pm
post #1267 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Have you used amps with available specs to the extent like O2 have, with switchable gain resistors in order to choose the ideal one for every pair?

 

 

Not unless I'm OCD and have too much time and money on my hands, which unfortunately I'm not and don't.

 

 


Quote:

 

Also, have you had some reference setup with you in order to properly assess what you actually heard on those meetings? You need to compare with something already proved to be good enough...

 

Yeahhhh and introduce predisposition bias into the mix, right.

post #1268 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

I don't see flatness and neutrality in your frequency response graph in the bass and mids region...

 

 

 

 

 

Also, can you explain your view on "the 30Hz square wave response is the best square wave response there is"?

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3Rev2sn2613375circa2012.pdf

 

(I really cannot see anything spectacular about 30 Hz wave of LCD-3... it's good, not the best evah)

 

I would say LCD-2 rev2 is much nearer to neutrality in bass, mids and treble as well... And measurements are the same, if not better with LCD-2 rev2.

 

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf

 

You should re-read my post...it was in DEFENSE of Audeze's bass being linear and flat. Not a slag against the LCD-2s (which I love BTW). If you don't see flatness in the FR graph, then you'll have to look again...'cause its there my friend. Do you realize that the graphs can move up and down as you increase the volume? As well, please show me a headphone beyond the LCD-2/3 with a better square wave response? Haven't seen one yet....but maybe I missed one? So if you re-read my posts in context with each other, you'd see (at least I hope you would) that they were in defence of the LCD-2/3's bass being neutral and not "too bassy" as some others think (which they certainly are entitled to have their preferences).

 

Sorry, I've owned the LCD-2 r.1 / LCD-2 r.2 and neither headphone did anything better than the LCD-3s (except cost 1/2 as much). I'm not sure if you've even had a chance to actually hear them...but I'm sorry you wallet had to hear this. smile.gif Most ears that I trust (Jude, Tyll, Skylab and well...my own) have all pronounced the LCD-3s the better headphone....period. And if all you're doing is going off the innerfidelity graphs, you're missing sooo darn much. Please take the time to read the article that I wrote in regards to just how accurate and precise headphone measurements are (even of the exact same pair of headphones....not the same model, but actually the same pair of headphones). Then there's the other things that measurements can't relay like imaging, PrAT, dynamics, detail, layering, transparency, etc, etc, etc...... All of which go to the LCD-3s. Is the margin 2X like the price? Certainly not, that that's the price we pay in audio. 

 

Can we please move on with this wonderful thread? And not make it a love-in for your LCD-2s....we get it. So, can we please move on? redface.gif


Edited by MacedonianHero - 11/24/12 at 7:04pm
post #1269 of 4937

Have the LCD2Rev2 and HE500;also had at the same time Audio GD Phoenix and O2 amp and I sold the O2.

Now why is that,you might ask MHOE?

Because the O2 couldn't tickle out as much as the the Phoenix is able to do.

Which means the LCD2 sounded so much richer on everything/better out of the Phoenix.

post #1270 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifimanrookie View Post


Thank u stacker45..but i think we all think the same..and everyone is sayingthe truth in his or her way..one said..u have to hear the phone on UR OWN RIG..thats only way u can be sure the phone gives u what u need in a phone..no phone is perfect..but as i said before..if u can listen to it for hours without fatique and feeling as if ur drowning into the music..stick with it..no matter which brand, model or price range..and seeing the reviews on the much cheaper phones i know i am true..for someone a sr225 is heaven..for the other a stax sr009..let us just respect each others opinions..if mhoe thinks he can read from graphs which phone is best FOR HIM..then we have to respect that..we are al here as we love music..right..so if i in any way insulted mhoe..my aplogies..we just don agree on CERTAIN things..he did say the he500 is a good phone though..sooo..be nice ok..
****! i just broke my headphone socket on the inside on my337...mad.gif u all are to blame for it.. I got all nervous because of all this argueing biggrin.gif just kidding..no not about my socket..****..and i just sold my spare amp..my mstage..this weekend no music for me redface.gif my new neutrik lockable socket will arrive on monday..and the local tube specialist will Exchange them on tuesday..wish me luck!

 

 

You say ''we all think the same'' i'm not so sure, MHOE swears by graphs, and i couldn't care less about them, what i care about is if all the components in my system, wich all have their specific graphs, sound good together, wich i'm happy to report they do.

 

Now i'm off for a little quality time with my suposedly very neutral Grado HP1000, by the way MHOE, you might want to look at their graph, and then explain to me why i still prefer the sound my PS1000  wich graph's looks like an ECG of someone having a heart attack.

post #1271 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

Well, I fully respect his point of view... But as you maybe registered, our views differ in some areas. Measurements are still much more objective for me than trying to rely on the other's opinion or on my flawed ears during short-time meetings.

 

I don't believe in any sort of synergy... The amp is just neutral, transparent and powerful enough to drive, or not. Headphones are just neutral and technically advanced enough, or not. No mystical powers or voodoo involved. Of course, measurements do not show everything... But I do not spend my hundreds of dollars on flawed products - they are technically great enough, or simply not good enough.

 

Trashing headphones and other products you have no experience with is strongly frowned-upon here. Maybe if you wished to take a scientific approach -- that is, actually investigating for yourself with a number of amps and learning how they work and even building your own and experimenting and seeing how they perform with various headphones, it will generate a lot of interesting discussion and will be a good experience for you. Pointing to graphs and saying "This is right and that is wrong" will not. If you think it is possible to do so, you should read the thread about this year's AES paper if you want to get an idea how complex the subject of headphone measurements really are.

 

That all being said, I'm going to suggest your own thread to discuss this if you wish to continue, from your very next post, in fact. smile.gif

post #1272 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by stacker45 View Post


You say ''we all think the same'' i'm not so sure, MHOE swears by graphs, and i couldn't care less about them, what i care about is if all the components in my system, wich all have their specific graphs, sound good together, wich i'm happy to report they do.

Now i'm off for a little quality time with my suposedly very neutral Grado HP1000, by the way MHOE, you might want to look at their graph, and then explain to me why i still prefer the sound my PS1000  wich graph's looks like an ECG of someone having a heart attack.

With the same i meant: that we all want to enjoy music..
Enjoy ur quality time...i am in bad luck..my amp broke down..and only on monday it can be repaired..mad.gif
post #1273 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifimanrookie View Post


With the same i meant: that we all want to enjoy music..
Enjoy ur quality time...i am in bad luck..my amp broke down..and only on monday it can be repaired..mad.gif

 

Sorry, i misunderstood you.

 

Yeah!, Lhasa sounded pretty good through of my old HP1000s, even if it was straight from the headphone output of my vintage Yamaha CA-610II.

 

Hope your amp gets fixed ASAP.

post #1274 of 4937
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stacker45 View Post

 

Sorry, i misunderstood you.

 

Yeah!, Lhasa sounded pretty good through of my old HP1000s, even if it was straight from the headphone output of my vintage Yamaha CA-610II.

 

Hope your amp gets fixed ASAP.

Those HP1000s are beast!!

post #1275 of 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

 

Thanks! btw that's funny.... It seems I need to put the Rev 2 in here.

gs1000.gif I'm really pleased you're going to look into the Rev2's. I know there has been a lot of talk about this one (from one person in particular..) but I hope this doesn't tarnish your relationship with the LCD2's. Especially since you like your Jazz, the rev2's are my favorites yet with this genre. Used to be the RS1's.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

Tonight's listening session began real late (just getting started).  The HE-6 is plugged into my Woo 5 K1K output.  It sounds wonderful!! Listening to Wynton Marsalis live at the Vanguard 1999.  I was actually at the concert.  I wish I could say I remember it sonically, but sadly, I don't.  haha.  But I'd be surprised if it sounded this rich when I was there.  This sounds WONDERFUL!

Awww man! Good good choice. I have the collection of all these concerts, everyone is brilliant. Great recordings too.

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