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Battle Of The Flagships (58 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: AUDEZ'E LCD-2 Revision 2 (6/4/13) - Page 77

post #1141 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHO

 

That would not make sense as people do not want to read about objective evaluations, they want to decide themselves what to buy based on another's ears and preferences...

 

 

 

Actually MHOE, I think Jude was being tongue-in-cheek. Of course it isn't possible to review headphones you haven't heard based on measurement alone.

 

FWIW, I tend to agree with you about the HD800. Ultimately no matter what one person says about a headphone, no matter how good his ears, you have to take the majority concensus, and that says that in most situations, with most equipment (ie, affordable stuff), and with most recordings in most genres, the HD800 is a little too bright and analytical and simply not forgiving enough for consistently enjoyable day-to-day listening. I've never heard it: I'm just saying that that would be my judgement were I to be considering phones in that price range. And unfortunately, that judgement would be bolstered by the FR. Combined with the myriad comments here on Head-Fi and elsewhere, that 6-7khz peak would really worry me.

 

I'm not saying the HD800 can't be got to sound relatively flat and neutral and--who knows?--maybe even slightly warm. Just that the evidence suggests it isn't likely in the majority of situations.

post #1142 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

 

Actually MHOE, I think Jude was being tongue-in-cheek. Of course it isn't possible to review headphones you haven't heard based on measurement alone.

 

FWIW, I tend to agree with you about the HD800. Ultimately no matter what one person says about a headphone, no matter how good his ears, you have to take the majority concensus, and that says that in most situations, with most equipment (ie, affordable stuff), and with most recordings in most genres, the HD800 is a little too bright and analytical and simply not forgiving enough for consistently enjoyable day-to-day listening. I've never heard it: I'm just saying that that would be my judgement were I to be considering phones in that price range. And unfortunately, that judgement would be bolstered by the FR. Combined with the myriad comments here on Head-Fi and elsewhere, that 6-7khz peak would really worry me.

 

I'm not saying the HD800 can't be got to sound relatively flat and neutral and--who knows?--maybe even slightly warm. Just that the evidence suggests it isn't likely in the majority of situations.

 

Wait...what? You've never heard it?  confused.gif

 

BTW, headphone FR measurements have  their "issues" too:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/expert-tests-innerfidelitys-headphone-measurement-repeatability-and-reproducibility

post #1143 of 5021
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

 

Wait...what? You've never heard it?  confused.gif

 

BTW, headphone FR measurements have  their "issues" too:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/expert-tests-innerfidelitys-headphone-measurement-repeatability-and-reproducibility

I've read this before, but I wanted to say that this is an amazing piece you guys did!

post #1144 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

 

Wait...what? You've never heard it?  confused.gif

 

BTW, headphone FR measurements have  their "issues" too:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/expert-tests-innerfidelitys-headphone-measurement-repeatability-and-reproducibility

 

Of course they have their issues... They are not precisely accurate, compensation of treble region is also speculative etc. But if you already own or heard few pairs of headphones that were measured by one source and if you are willing to learn something about sound and experiment with EQing etc., you can get very close to finding out what should be a very good pair of headphones for you.

 

I just trust measurements more than people's preferences and different hearing sensitivity across the frequency spectrum.

post #1145 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

I've read this before, but I wanted to say that this is an amazing piece you guys did!

Thanks Dave. While measurements can help (and I do use them quite often), they cannot give you the whole picture; especially considering how the same pair of headphones can vary with subsequent measurements.

post #1146 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

Thanks Dave. While measurements can help (and I do use them quite often), they cannot give you the whole picture; especially considering how the same pair of headphones can vary with subsequent measurements.

 

 

Peter,

 

I've seen where you've referred to measurements.  However, at the same time you also gave your personal experience with said headphone.  I can't remember a time where you recommended or preferred a headphone based on measurements along. Correct me if I'm wrong.

post #1147 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 

Peter,

 

I've seen where you've referred to measurements.  However, at the same time you also gave your personal experience with said headphone.  I can't remember a time where you recommended or preferred a headphone based on measurements along. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I always like to use both. I find that the measurements help me better understand what I'm hearing (usually that is smile.gif). But realizing that measurements have their limitations then one must use their ears. 

post #1148 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

I always like to use both. I find that the measurements help me better understand what I'm hearing (usually that is smile.gif). But realizing that measurements have their limitations then one must use their ears. 

 

I agree when you say ''one must use their ears'', i look at graphs with my eyes, but i listen to music with my ears, and as far as i'm concerned,  i will never buy a pair of headphone if i can't try them on my sound system first.

 

As i have stated before, headphone by themselves can't produce any sound, they need software, a source and an amplifier, all of wich will also play a role in what the final sound signature of whole system will be.

 

Finally, David has a lot more patience than i do, for my part,  i decided to agree to disagree with MHOE.

post #1149 of 5021
Quote:

Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

Wait...what? You've never heard it?  confused.gif

 

 

Let me put it this way (metaphor alert): if I'm going into a cinema and the majority of patrons coming out look slightly pale and tell me this is the bloodiest movie they've ever seen, I should take that as fair warning, especially if I already had a distinct dislike for bloody movies.

 

That aside, you should read my post carefully. It doesn't say, "I've never heard this phone but I still think it's bright and harsh," It says, "I've never heard it: I'm just saying that that would be my judgement were I to be considering phones in that price range." That is, you don't just ignore user reviews and go for something that almost certainly won't suit you.


Edited by pp312 - 11/21/12 at 10:19pm
post #1150 of 5021

Not sure if this will be appreciated, but I'll try my hand @ it...

 

I'm absolutely a "graphs & measurements" kinda guy and it plays a role in my life in a number of ways.  Friend considers me a "squiggly line investor", and I own & use one of these http://www.terrasonde.com/products/color.php to tweek my media and two channel rooms.
 

But interestingly enough the other week I auditioned a Denon AH-D600 in consideration of buying it.  And the initial and predominant thought that came to mind was "these sound remarkably similar to my ATH-ESW9 headphones", with some notable differences like a bit more pronounced & edgy high frequency, and overal bass thickness (they were right out of the box so I certainly didn't make the mistake of thinking there wouldn't be an evolution of that). 

 

But in any case, I paste for you here a comparison the folks over HeadRoom make available to us, comparing the "squiggly lines" of the freq. resp. of the AH-D600 and the ATH-ESW9.  I seriously doubt anyone who thinks they will know how a headphone will "sound" based on the squiggly line will come to the conclusion that these two would be reminicent of each other.  Yet to me they are.

 

 

 

Now however, if any graph hints at why that is (that they would be reminicent of each other), it's the 500Hz square wave behavior and not the frequency response...  Ignoring the shift in the phase of the waveform, there are notable similarities...

 

So me, I've learned I need to rely less on the frequency response than I previously would have.  And why I'm looking forward to the upcoming NYC meet that'll be out in Babylon Long Island NY.  There's lots I want to "hear" in consideration of expanding my collection of headphones.


Edited by m8o - 11/21/12 at 10:04pm
post #1151 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Again, I admire HD800 and am willing to claim that they are the most advanced dynamic headphone available today... They are just not neutral. Near-to-neutral headphones are LCD-2 rev2, LCD-3, Stax 009. And few others quite close to it like LCD-2 rev1, HE-6, HE-500, HD800, some other Staxes maybe...

My LCD-3 are much less neutral than my HE-6 and HD800, and I think many would agree here.

 

I listened to my KH-120's today through the schiit gungnir/mjolnir's pre outs and realized what kind of coloration the schiits have. It also made me realize how the LCD-3 is not as linear as graphs indicated it to be. I'm not much of a graph person, but for the sake of it; the KH-120's measure ruler flat, literally, with a drop off in the bass.

 

The sound was fantastic, and initially made me hate all three of my headphones. But then I remembered the benefits of having phones so I will be keeping two and letting one go.

 

I thought I'd be keeping the LCD-3 over the HE-6 to complement my HD800, but I simply can't; it sounds great, but tonally wrong, with the shelved treble making everything else sound dominant. It's like a perfectly flat freq response with the entire 2k+ khz range dropped by -3db's; which simply ruins the perfect balance.

 

Of course most audiophile love coloration, and audez'e's line is really an audiophile headphone.

 

Here's the Neumann (Klein + Hummel) KH-120 freq response:

1000

 

 

1000

post #1152 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by dleblanc343 View Post

My LCD-3 are much less neutral than my HE-6 and HD800, and I think many would agree here.

 

I listened to my KH-120's today through the schiit gungnir/mjolnir's pre outs and realized what kind of coloration the schiits have. It also made me realize how the LCD-3 is not as linear as graphs indicated it to be. I'm not much of a graph person, but for the sake of it; the KH-120's measure ruler flat, literally, with a drop off in the bass.

 

The sound was fantastic, and initially made me hate all three of my headphones. But then I remembered the benefits of having phones so I will be keeping two and letting one go.

 

I thought I'd be keeping the LCD-3 over the HE-6 to complement my HD800, but I simply can't; it sounds great, but tonally wrong, with the shelved treble making everything else sound dominant. It's like a perfectly flat freq response with the entire 2k+ khz range dropped by -3db's; which simply ruins the perfect balance.

 

Of course most audiophile love coloration, and audez'e's line is really an audiophile headphone.

 

Here's the Neumann (Klein + Hummel) KH-120 freq response:

1000

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your valuable info! Unfortunately, I do not have an option to measure LCD-3 myself so I can only use measurements available here... Do you think your LCD-3 is the veiled, or unveiled version? They should be different in their responses...

 

Purrin's graph: 

 

 

 

Headphone.com:

 

 

 

Innerfidelity:

 

 

 

Official unveiled (Neumann KU 100):

 

 

Official veiled (Neumann KU 100):

 

 

 

My graph of LCD-2 rev2:

 

 

Innerfidelity's Rev2:

 

 

 

I would say both Audeze phones are fairly neutral... HD800 do not have flat bass by any margin and their treble is also not neutral. Mids are allright. HE-6 have too much treble and the bass is also not ruler flat.

 

Also, I am free to EQ my pair to neutrality very easily as I have the measurement available with me... I have my EQ curve already done but prefer their natural response for my rock and metal music so far. But for more critical listening, I have it ready! :-) This is also why I don't think Audezes are only an audiophile phone... You get the graph, this is very rare. Lunatique prefers Audeze over Staxes so far for their sound even for professional work (neutralised by EQ, of course)... That's interesting.


Edited by MHOE - 11/22/12 at 3:07am
post #1153 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by jude View Post

MHOE, I think DavidMahler has made no mystery of the nature of his reviews.

 

You should consider (and I'm not being glib) writing your version of what David did, but based only on measurement data available--including headphones you haven't heard. That is, using only the data (including for headphones you haven't heard, but have used measurements to form impressions of), write about what the headphones sound like.

 

But this isn't the thread for it, so you'd have to start another.

I totally agree,+1 Jude

Its gotten to the point of over analysis of the analyser,pure opinions from people who either have never owned,or even heard the heapdhones they are talking about.

David's did a fantastic job,spent 1 &1/2 years,and $41,000.00 {I think?} ,in his research..

post #1154 of 5021

This measurements vs. listening debate has been going on for decades since the early days of audio equipment reviews, as in

Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review/Consumer Reports

vs.

Stereophile/J.Gordon Holt/John Atkinson/Absolute Sound/Harry Pearson.

 

Somehow it always creeps into lots of threads on head-fi. It feels like 50 years ago.

Maybe there should be new "Punditry" forum for more general headphone discussions just for these discussions.

It's not that they aren't important or interesting, it's just that it leads to a lot of tangential posts in threads that are geared to specific topics.

post #1155 of 5021
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgs9200m View Post

This measurements vs. listening debate has been going on for decades since the early days of audio equipment reviews, as in

Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review/Consumer Reports

vs.

Stereophile/J.Gordon Holt/John Atkinson/Absolute Sound/Harry Pearson.

 

Somehow it always creeps into lots of threads on head-fi. It feels like 50 years ago.

Maybe there should be new "Punditry" forum for more general headphone discussions just for these discussions.

It's not that they aren't important or interesting, it's just that it leads to a lot of tangential posts in threads that are geared to specific topics.

Well said.

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