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Battle Of The Flagships (58 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: AUDEZ'E LCD-2 Revision 2 (6/4/13) - Page 68

post #1006 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgs9200m View Post
 

 

Are you selling your DX-1000?

post #1007 of 4945

What's that thing I think Harry Pearson of Absolute Sound said when he worked there: 

If it measures wrong and sounds good you're measuring the wrong thing.

post #1008 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

Are you selling your DX-1000?

Sold to alota (who posted above) a while back.

post #1009 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgs9200m View Post

What's that thing I think Harry Pearson of Absolute Sound said when he worked there: 

If it measures wrong and sounds good you're measuring the wrong thing.

 

I think the problem is you don't understand what measurements offer in reality... Their purpose is definitely not to tell by themselves what you are going to mark as "good sounding" pair of headphones. It's impossible as your ears are individual as well as your sound preferences... You just have to add your input to it, you have to read/adjust them to your preferences.

 

Someone wants to buy gear that is objectively great for its price... he or she usually knows why and what exactly he/she is looking for and this is the simpliest way how to achieve it. You just need to understand those measurements. For example, all people in the audio industry should be aware of how to assess the gear in order to record and reproduce music in a quality way.

 

Judging anything by your ears is objectively flawed but for sure enough if you are not going to record or reproduce music to audience. You can just keep on spending money and trying to find out the best headphones and keep some of them in your inventory... Distorted or not, neutral or not, does not matter here. To the listeners, measurements offer only a way how to achieve more transparent, balanced and accurate reproduction - however, this is maybe not what you are looking for (the case of tube amps, bassy phones etc.).

 

Judging anything by opinions of the others that are based on their subjective preferences, is objectively flawed and wrong in almost every way. You should do this only if you need to ADJUST YOUR OPINION A BIT to be finally sure about.


Edited by MHOE - 11/16/12 at 5:46pm
post #1010 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

Luke,

Don't let anyone persuade or talk you into letting graphs and charts make a decision for you.  Let you ears tell you what you like.  If anyone picks a headphone over another (being as close as they are in sound) because a graph points a tad bit in a certain direction. 

It's to many variables with those graphs.  What amps was used. What DAC was used?  The headphones might have bad synergy with the equipment it was tested on.  

If you like what you hear that's the way you should go.  People trying to push graphs and charts on others is wrong.  Get what you like by what you hear - that's my honest opinion.

+1 i second that! Luke..use the force.. cool.gif i mean ur ears..seriously..the only equipment who can show u that something sounds nice..are those weird thingies on each side of ur head..go back to the basics..listen..and not only to music ur normally used to..but listen to other types too even ones u dont like..or never thought of....for instance i found out i like certain very raw metalica ( u know those guys who scream like animals and sing about devils and like)..those crazy bands sometimes have geniuses on the electtric guitars! okay u sometimes get deaf of the growling those guys do..but when u hear those guitars scream and cry..my god...like they speak through those guitars! I am saying.sometimes other types of music show u sides of the soundspectrum u never ever thought of..and then u choose what phones u like or pairs best with u..we all have our likings and preferences and ears and minds which alltogether determines what u think and feel best to for u..just go with the force..like luke skywalker did in starwars And u know where he ended.. biggrin.gif ps..i am not green and i cant stay in the air by my brainpower.. biggrin.gif
Edited by hifimanrookie - 11/16/12 at 6:26pm
post #1011 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

You should read through the last two or three pages... He himself tried to add his desired phones to the discussion that was about neutral headphones up to 1000USD. I have had nothing against and gladly checked measurements in order to find out how good those Hifimans are in terms of neutrality... That's all. I haven't said him to buy HE500, you can find the proof yourself...

 

The starter of this thread did of course a great job for the majority of headfiers as they rather judge by their ears than by measurements. The rest can still use the graphs and measurements = all

 

headfiers are happy. I do not see any trouble in here... I do not force anyone to do anything. But if anyone is interested in my opinion, I have no problem to help...

French is my main language, so please be indugent.

 

The way i see it, they're are just too many variable that come into play to come to any definite conclusions regarding headphones FR graphs, or any other components for that matter.

 

I have one of the most neutral sounding headphones ever produced (Grado HP-1000) and altough i like their sound signature, i generally prefer the sound of my less than neutral PS1000s.

 

I don't pay too much attention to FR graphs, the reason beeing that headphones can't produce any sound on their own, they need to be connected to a source and and amp, both of wich will have their own sound signature, if you hookup bright sounding headphones to a smooth sounding source/amp combination, you'll end up with a somewhat neutral sound.

 

That beeing said, the the recording plays a role too, a bright sounding recording on a sound system with a rolled off treble might sound pretty good, but the same recording could sound too bright on a neutral system, and unlistenable on a bright sounding one.

 

And last, but certainly not least, we al head a bit differently and we all have different tastes, that's why i always use the word different instead of better when describing the sound of headphones, that way i don't offend anyone, and anyway, what sounds good to me, might not to someone else.

post #1012 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by stacker45 View Post

French is my main language, so please be indugent.

 

The way i see it, they're are just too many variable that come into play to come to any definite conclusions regarding headphones FR graphs, or any other components for that matter.

 

I have one of the most neutral sounding headphones ever produced (Grado HP-1000) and altough i like their sound signature, i generally prefer the sound of my less than neutral PS1000s.

 

I don't pay too much attention to FR graphs, the reason beeing that headphones can't produce any sound on their own, they need to be connected to a source and and amp, both of wich will have their own sound signature, if you hookup bright sounding headphones to a smooth sounding source/amp combination, you'll end up with a somewhat neutral sound.

 

That beeing said, the the recording plays a role too, a bright sounding recording on a sound system with a rolled off treble might sound pretty good, but the same recording could sound too bright on a neutral system, and unlistenable on a bright sounding one.

 

And last, but certainly not least, we al head a bit differently and we all have different tastes, that's why i always use the word different instead of better when describing the sound of headphones, that way i don't offend anyone, and anyway, what sounds good to me, might not to someone else.

 

We are not talking about FR graphs only... Innerfidelity offers much more in order to assess level of distortion, noise, isolation, real impedance across the spectrum, balance between right and left channel, what exactly you need to properly drive the pair etc.

 

As for source, you want to use the best DAC in order to get the most accurate digital-to-analog conversion. As for amps, it depends on your approach... Whether you want accurate amplification, or some sort of desirable coloration/distortion. I seek for hearing the music, not my gear, for neutral and accurate reproduction... With neutral and technically brilliant amp, you are able to assess correctly just anything you want without the need to be inaccurate due to "bad synergy".

 

As for your final words, I have the same opinion and that's why I am trying to stay objective... I am not telling anyone what he or she should buy or prefer. Everyone's ears are different, everyone has different preferences and wants to achieve something different. I have stated this several times...


Edited by MHOE - 11/16/12 at 6:29pm
post #1013 of 4945

Thank-you for the great reviews. This ends up being very definitive as a reference guide for me. Definable as a perfect asset for everyone.

post #1014 of 4945
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post

Thank-you for the great reviews. This ends up being very definitive as a reference guide for me. Definable as a perfect asset for everyone.

Thank you! :)

post #1015 of 4945
Thread Starter 

Maybe I should chime in on this graph/measurement discussion... seems to be "heated"

 

If I had the equipment to create proper/accurate graphs, I would have loved to have included it for educational purposes.  At least half of the headphones have been graphed (namely by Tyll and Purrin).  Their work (not only with regard to these graphs) is a tremendous asset to the community.  When I came to head-fi, it was Tyll whose enthusiasm and well-informed opinions served as a major inspiration to myself, other members (and I'm pretty confident in assuming manufacturers as well).  So when I say the following, it is of no disrespect to anyone who has attempted to assist the community by graphing and measuring headphones and other gear.

 

My opinion of graphs is that they CAN serve as a fantastic base for which conversations/debates can sprout when a group of people are discussing a headphone. The frequency response, harmonic distortion, impulse, square wave graphs etc, provide a glimpse (a scientific one nonetheless) into how, where and why the headphone excels and fails.  BUT...

 

Graphs are just the beginning.  There are simply too many factors in sound, and the personal human perception of sound, which are "ungraphable."  I believe that it is simply impossible for anyone to look at a graph of a headphone's performance and have any significant sensory understanding of a headphone.  I also feel that, despite the awesome technology that goes into measuring a headphone, there is still a margin of error.

 

If one wants to use a graph to prove a point about a headphone for which they do have a sensory understanding of, then that is perfectly understandable (and typically very helpful).  However, there is no doubt in my mind that there are headphones that measure better than others, yet sound worse to me (and to many others).  Therefore, graphs are a phenomenal resource for discussion, and granted the limited resources one may have - they can serve as an important deciding factor, BUT in learning of a headphone for which I have not yet heard, I typically put more stock into the collected impressions of many who have heard the headphone in question, than I do a graph.   Of course, if my impression of the headphone goes against the popular one, or against the graph, I don't question it, because it's my personal perception of sound.


Edited by DavidMahler - 11/16/12 at 6:55pm
post #1016 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

Maybe I should chime in on this graph/measurement discussion... seems to be "heated"

 

If I had the equipment to create proper/accurate graphs, I would have loved to have included it for educational purposes.  At least half of the headphones have been graphed (namely by Tyll and Purrin).  Their work (not only with regard to these graphs) is a tremendous asset to the community.  When I came to head-fi, it was Tyll whose enthusiasm and well-informed opinions served as a major inspiration to myself, other members (and I'm pretty confident in assuming manufacturers as well).  So when I say the following, it is of no disrespect to anyone who has attempted to assist the community by graphing and measuring headphones and other gear.

 

My opinion of graphs is that they CAN serve as a fantastic base for which conversations/debates can sprout when a group of people are discussing a headphone. The frequency response, harmonic distortion, impulse, square wave graphs etc, provide a glimpse (a scientific one nonetheless) into how, where and why the headphone excels and fails.  BUT...

 

Graphs are just the beginning.  There are simply too many factors in sound, and the personal human perception of sound, which are "ungraphable."  I believe that it is simply impossible for anyone to look at a graph of a headphone's performance and have any significant sensory understanding of a headphone.  I also feel that, despite the awesome technology that goes into measuring a headphone, there is still a margin of error.

 

 If one wants to use a graph to prove a point about a headphone for which they do have a sensory understanding of, then that is perfectly understandable (and typically very helpful).  However, there is no doubt in my mind that there are headphones that measure better than others, yet sound worse to me (and to many others).  Therefore, graphs are a phenomenal resource for discussion, and granted the limited resources one may have - they can serve as an important deciding factor, BUT in learning of a headphone for which I have not yet heard, I typically put more stock into the collected opinions of many who have heard the headphone in question, than I do a graph. 

 

I agree with the majority of this... But you forgot to mention that if anyone wants to have a technically great pair of headphones, measurements are absolutely needed and are of more importance than your ears which can be fooled quite easily with short-time listening sessions. If you want to record and listen to music accurately and true-to-the-source, you simply need measurements in order to not go wrong.

 

Also, using an equalizer, you can always educate yourself on how changing the FR in specific frequencies is going to affect the sound... You can even read up books which will tell you how it is possible to subjectively name sound effect of emphasising or lowering certain regions of the FR graph. Graphs can help you to find out potential pairs of interest if you are after some sort of sound as well... Personal listening session is more desirable in case you are not very serious about what you want to spend your money for. Maybe you can just spend 40k on gear, trial or error, doesn't matter to you really, but I simply can't. 1000USD are enough for me to not judge by subjective personal opinions from the community anymore.


Edited by MHOE - 11/16/12 at 7:01pm
post #1017 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post

Thank-you for the great reviews. This ends up being very definitive as a reference guide for me. Definable as a perfect asset for everyone.

I agree with that..well done.. tongue.gif
post #1018 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

I agree with the majority of this... But you forgot to mention that if anyone wants to have a technically great pair of headphones, measurements are absolutely needed and are of more importance than your ears which can be fooled quite easily with short-time listening sessions. If you want to record and listen to music accurately and true-to-the-source, you simply need measurements in order to not go wrong.

Also, using an equalizer, you can always educate yourself on how changing the FR in specific frequencies is going to affect the sound... You can even read up books which will tell you how it is possible to subjectively name sound effect of emphasising or lowering certain regions of the FR graph. Graphs can help you to find out potential pairs of interest if you are after some sort of sound as well... Personal listening session is more desirable in case you are not very serious about what you want to spend your money for. Maybe you can just spend 40k on gear, trial or error, doesn't matter to you really, but I simply can't. 1000USD are enough for me to not judge by subjective personal opinions from the community anymore.

Thats why u have to take ur time for listening.. But i understand u just wanna be careful what to buy.. My budget is also not exteme as i am a dad of a little princess of just 10.. and trust me..at that age they start to get expensive...just like her mum . biggrin.gif so U just have to find same minded guys and girls who love to listen to music as much as u and have the phones ur interested in so u can listen to it..tongue.gif
Edited by hifimanrookie - 11/16/12 at 7:10pm
post #1019 of 4945
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

I agree with the majority of this... But you forgot to mention that if anyone wants to have a technically great pair of headphones, measurements are absolutely needed and are of more importance than your ears which can be fooled quite easily with short-time listening sessions. If you want to record and listen to music accurately and true-to-the-source, you simply need measurements in order to not go wrong.

 

I didn't forget to mention this.  I agree that a graph can demonstrate technical excellence (in many ways). And if someone is seeking a headphone which measures well, then obviously a graph will be a the most significant resource in making a decision.  But I also feel that, in most instances, basing sound purely on technical performance in graphs is a practice which tends to deny your ears. 


Edited by DavidMahler - 11/16/12 at 7:13pm
post #1020 of 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

I didn't forget to mention this.  I agree that a graph can demonstrate technical excellence (in many ways). And if someone is seeking a headphone which measures well, then obvious a graph will be a the most significant resource in making a decision.  But I also feel that, in most instances, basing sound purely on technical performance in graphs is a practice which tends to deny your ears. 

Well said..damn..why am i still awake at 4:12 am redface.gif
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