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Battle Of The Flagships (57 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: Ultimate Ears UERM added (4/14/13) - Page 83

post #1231 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

Likewise I could find you 10 more people on this forum who would prefer the HE-500 or HE-6 over the LCD-2 because they like the small treble spike they have compared to the recessed treble the LCD-2 has.  There is nothing suspicious at work, just differing preferences in audio quality.

 

Measurements speak for the HE-500 and HE-6 as well.  Please do not counter this line with that LCD-2 measurement paper with your tapered green line, the thread's seen it more than enough.

 

LCD-2 costing 1000 and HE-500 costing 700 should have little to do with it.  Never take price into consideration for hi-fi stuff, because half the time, something more expensive might get out-performed by something less expensive.

 

 

Good post Raven

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post #1232 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 

Good post Raven

 

Except for he is completely wrong about measurements speaking for Hifimans...

 

Once again:

 

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE500.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE6.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf

 

 - 30Hz is rather a joke with HE-500 and HE-6 in comparison with rev2 (bass quality)

 - 300Hz square shows ringing with all those three phones but LCD-2 rev2 are the most controlled pair here (overall imaging, the lowest level of harshness)

 - Impulse response is way the most natural and fastest with rev2 (speed/decay/clarity)

 - %THD to noise is very good with all the three cans, rev2 still the best but HE-6 very near (control, transparency)

 - There is no spike involved with rev2... Balanced sound


Edited by MHOE - 11/24/12 at 12:25pm
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post #1233 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Oh really?

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE500.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE6.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf

 

 - 30Hz is rather a joke with HE-500 and HE-6 in comparison with rev2 (bass quality)

 - 300Hz square shows ringing with all those three phones but LCD-2 rev2 are the most controlled pair here (overall imaging, the lowest level of harshness)

 - Impulse response is way the most natural and fastest with rev2 (speed/decay/clarity)

 - %THD to noise is very good with all the three cans, rev2 still the best but HE-6 very near (control, transparency)

 - There is no spike involved with rev2... Balanced sound

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Except for he is completely wrong about measurements speaking for Hifimans...

 

Once again:

 

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE500.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE6.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf

 

 - 30Hz is rather a joke with HE-500 and HE-6 in comparison with rev2 (bass quality)

 - 300Hz square shows ringing with all those three phones but LCD-2 rev2 are the most controlled pair here (overall imaging, the lowest level of harshness)

 - Impulse response is way the most natural and fastest with rev2 (speed/decay/clarity)

 - %THD to noise is very good with all the three cans, rev2 still the best but HE-6 very near (control, transparency)

 - There is no spike involved with rev2... Balanced sound

 

 

 

I understand how much you like the LCD-2 man, but honestly.  You've turned the thread into an LCD-2 measurement analysis topic, it's almost laughable.  There are other measurements that showcase some things the hifimans do better than audez'e, but I'm not going to post them for Purrin's sake.


Edited by TMRaven - 11/24/12 at 12:28pm
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post #1234 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

Well, if 10 people (including two official headphone sellers) say they would take LCD-2 rev2 anytime over HE-500, it starts to be a bit suspicious...

But honestly, their opinion does not matter to me. I have found my desired pair of headphones in LCD-2 rev2 and this means I am never going to buy HE-500 or HE-6. I just wanted to mention things that I have heard about those two phones (LCD-2 vs HE-500) often and were mentioned in the e-mail from the seller as well.

By the way, measurement speaks for rev2 as well... But of course, LCD-2 rev2 costs 1000USD, HE-500 700USD.

Just to cue in a bit..Not everyone has enough money to spend 1000 on a lcd2..even 700 is big money for MOST of us..ofcourse..if u have or willing to spend 1000 and more i have only one phone for u..the lcd3..but most of us are around the max 800 mark..as far i can see.. the paradoxes,hd650's, mad dog's, dt990's, rs1i's, he500's, ath-w1000x's, pro900's, srh1840's, t70p's, k702's are in my eyes the phones most audiophiles choose..and give most pleasure per dollar/euros/pounds...but hey..higher in the foodchain u find people who want best of the best..and then the budget is most of the times not an important factor..but i can be wrong here.. Stax anyone? biggrin.gif ..and in my eyes..the audezes fall in that category..and the he500 is not..he500 is very good value..okay its not cheap..but for the money u get a very 'complete' headphone no matter how the graphs are!..imho rolleyes.gif
Edited by hifimanrookie - 11/24/12 at 12:34pm
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post #1235 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

 

 

 

 

I understand how much you like the LCD-2 man, but honestly.  You've turned the thread into an LCD-2 measurement analysis topic.  There are other measurements that showcase some things the hifimans do better than audez'e, but I'm not going to post them for Purrin's sake.

 

I would like to see them... But I would also like to see all the gear and evaluation techniques purrin uses in order to assess who I can trust more. Tyll have his page that is full of useful info about what parameters in which conditions and how he measure with headphones. Is purrin as  transparent and trustfull as innerfidelity in his approach?


Edited by MHOE - 11/24/12 at 12:32pm
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post #1236 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

I would like to see them... But I would also like to see all the gear and evaluation techniques purrin uses in order to assess who I can trust more. Tyll have his page that is full of useful info about what parameters in which conditions and how he measure with headphones. Is purrin as  transparent and trustfull as innerfidelity in his approach?

 

 

MHOE,

 

It's not all about you man... It's about all of our impressions, the pros and cons the way we hear them.  We understand how you feel about your measurements.  Now give us some impressions from your ears.  Tells us what you hear, not what you see,  We're all in this together.  

 

 

400

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post #1237 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:41pm
Thread Starter 

Judging a headphone based on measurements is similar to judging a recipe without having tasted it.  You can have an excellent source of information, consider the best produce and the highest quality meat, and take into account all the small, tiny details that make a good chef a good chef.  BUT when you bite into it and you taste the food, there's no replacement for measurements and words on a page.  You could technically compare two recipes of the same dish, and based on experience you could even claim one might be better than the other, but until you taste it, it's all conjecture.  

 

Measurements of sound are different because over time you begin to develop a sense of what you like and can base your observances of measures on this, but still, you cannot YOU CANNOT say one headphone sounds better than another just by seeing a graph.  There is too much subjectivity involved.  You can literally have someone sit there with a well amped LCD-3 and then sit there with an Beats By Dre Solo HD, and in a room with 100 people, I guarantee at least a few people will say the Solo HD sounds better.  Does their opinion count?  I think so.  Is it  an informed? Probably not.  

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post #1238 of 3813
11/24/12 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

Judging a headphone based on measurements is similar to judging a recipe without having tasted it.  You can have an excellent source of information, consider the best produce and the highest quality meat, and take into account all the small, tiny details that make a good chef a good chef.  BUT when you bite into it and you taste the food, there's no replacement for measurements and words on a page.  You could technically compare two recipes of the same dish, and based on experience you could even claim one might be better than the other, but until you taste it, it's all conjecture.  

Measurements of sound are different because over time you begin to develop a sense of what you like and can base your observances of measures on this, but still, you cannot YOU CANNOT say one headphone sounds better than another just by seeing a graph.  There is too much subjectivity involved.  You can literally have someone sit there with a well amped LCD-3 and then sit there with an Beats By Dre Solo HD, and in a room with 100 people, I guarantee at least a few people will say the Solo HD sounds better.  Does their opinion count?  I think so.  Is it  an informed? Probably not.  

What u said is so true...i was at a meet this sunday and one amount of people reaaly loved my rig while others didnt..and my rig wasnt changed so the measurements were same..all our ears are different..and our sources, amps or any other piece of ur rig..if u find that special balance in ur lisening experience ur a happpy man/woman..and thats what count in the end...u smiling while u listen to ur music..and no measurement can give that to u without actually listen to it...imho
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post #1239 of 3813
11/24/12 at 1:06pm

wow! a monumental effort! how lucky is this man? I have heard precisely  NONE of these, although I have the LCD2 rev 2. can't  thank you nough for such an depth study.

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post #1240 of 3813
11/24/12 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Yes, I understood... That's difficult and happens everywhere.

 

Anyway, things that I have heard several times about HE-500 vs LCD-2 rev2 (and have read in the e-mail as well): Hifiman HE-500 is worse in terms of separation. Where LCD-2 is fully fluent and you can very well distinguish bass, mids and treble, instruments are rather badly separated and defined with HE-500. Also LCD-2 sounds more balanced when HE-500 can be a bit aggresive in treble (I would say only in comparison between those two phones).

 

But again, I fully recommend HE-500 and LCD-2 rev2 to anyone searching in the region up to 1000USD! Both have their strong regions!

 

Now this is funny :)

 

No seriously, I have heard only the opposite of these things.

I really dont understand, how can a headphone with narrower soundstage exceed in these categories?

Also using "HE-500" and "bad" is just plain wrong.

 

Its like saying the Bugatti Veyron is 0.3s faster than Gumpert Apollo from 0 - 60. Its just that bad!

 

Anyways, if you have read all the reviews of the HE-500 or HE-6 from people here at head-fi (whose opinions are highly regarded) you would reaize that calling HIFIman bad, is really nonsence.

 

THE ONLY THING, where HIFIman are sometimes criticised is soundstage and since the LCD-2s is even narrower, I simply cant understand the things you mentioned...

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post #1241 of 3813
11/24/12 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post

 

Now this is funny :)

 

No seriously, I have heard only the opposite of these things.

I really dont understand, how can a headphone with narrower soundstage exceed in these categories?

Also using "HE-500" and "bad" is just plain wrong.

 

Its like saying the Bugatti Veyron is 0.3s faster than Gumpert Apollo from 0 - 60. Its just that bad!

 

Anyways, if you have read all the reviews of the HE-500 or HE-6 from people here at head-fi (whose opinions are highly regarded) you would reaize that calling HIFIman bad, is really nonsence.

 

THE ONLY THING, where HIFIman are sometimes criticised is soundstage and since the LCD-2s is even narrower, I simply cant understand the things you mentioned...

 

To be honest, I haven't read all the discussions about Hifiman or Audeze phones... So it's possible I missed some very important in this regard.

 

But measurements speak for better tightness, control and separation of LCD-2 rev2 across the whole spectrum. Soundstage is a very specific thing and does not necessarily imply better separation or imaging IMHO. I agree that soundstage with LCD-2 rev2 is nothing spectacular but I do not need it as I already mentioned. Soundstage seekers are not going to be satisfied with LCD-2 rev2 for sure.

 

I would say that soundstage is the only "weakness" of LCD-2 rev2... I do not see it as weakness but I am absolutely sure that many people would do. I would suggest to use EQ to add a bit more air if anyone is interested... Especially EQ plugin called brainworx digital v2 does wonders here. But I do not use it as I prefer LCD-2 rev2 as they are - the additional "air" is messing the transparent experience for me.

 

I hope you have got the requested e-mail... IMHO, I would not take it as something crucial, you can still be much more satisfied with Hifiman phones.


Edited by MHOE - 11/24/12 at 2:02pm
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post #1242 of 3813
11/24/12 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

Why not the HE-400s?  How do they measure?

 

It seems to be an overwhelming amount of people really liking the HE-400s for some reason.

 

I'm far from an HI-FI Man's expert, but i had the chance to hear the whole line at the 2012 Montréal Hi-Fi show, and remember beeing impressed by their sound quality, and tought they represented the best buy among the HI-FI Man's line.

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post #1243 of 3813
11/24/12 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

To be honest, I haven't read all the discussions about Hifiman or Audeze phones... So it's possible I missed some very important in this regard.

 

But measurements speak for better tightness, control and separation of LCD-2 rev2 across the whole spectrum. Soundstage is a very specific thing and does not necessarily imply better separation or imaging IMHO. I agree that soundstage with LCD-2 rev2 is nothing spectacular but I do not need it as I already mentioned. Soundstage seekers are not going to be satisfied with LCD-2 rev2 for sure.

 

I hope you have got the requested e-mail... IMHO, I would not take it as something crucial, you can still be much more satisfied with Hifiman phones.

 

Ok I see. Well I would like a little more soundstage... I own the Pro 900 and I simply want a more neutral headphone (check) and bigger soundstage (check) but cant spend a grand of Euros (check). Again, I was told by a friend here that the HIFIman are better suited for my recordings (check) and that neutrality is not necessarily good for me (check) although even the HIFIman are still fairly close in this regard anyways (check) and I got a speaker amp so the HE-5LEs (check(

 

Again, IMO, the Slovak guys who wrote it were kind of prejudiced towards anything from China... As apparent from theire-mail, I would also say that it affected their impression significantly.

Plus, if the owner thinks one HP is better than the other, he is gonna tell the customers, thus possibly influncing them negatively 

 

Quote - HE-500 - nice,cheap and fine Hyundai I30. LCD-2 - Porsche Panamera (I might add that many find the Panamera ugl :) although quality wise, superior to Hyundai :D)

The rest of the e-mail is voiced in a similar manner...

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post #1244 of 3813
11/24/12 at 2:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeanidea View Post

wow! a monumental effort! how lucky is this man? I have heard precisely  NONE of these, although I have the LCD2 rev 2. can't  thank you nough for such an depth study.

 

Thanks! btw that's funny.... It seems I need to put the Rev 2 in here.

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post #1245 of 3813
11/24/12 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post

 

Ok I see. Well I would like a little more soundstage... I own the Pro 900 and I simply want a more neutral headphone (check) and bigger soundstage (check) but cant spend a grand of Euros (check). Again, I was told by a friend here that the HIFIman are better suited for my recordings (check) and that neutrality is not necessarily good for me (check) although even the HIFIman are still fairly close in this regard anyways (check) and I got a speaker amp so the HE-5LEs (check(

 

Again, IMO, the Slovak guys who wrote it were kind of prejudiced towards anything from China... As apparent from theire-mail, I would also say that it affected their impression significantly.

Plus, if the owner thinks one HP is better than the other, he is gonna tell the customers, thus possibly influncing them negatively 

 

Quote - HE-500 - nice,cheap and fine Hyundai I30. LCD-2 - Porsche Panamera (I might add that many find the Panamera ugl :) although quality wise, superior to Hyundai :D)

The rest of the e-mail is voiced in a similar manner...

 

I feel the need to mention once again that I very appreciate both Hifimans and Audeze. I only mentioned the e-mail in order to show you that not everyone loves Hifiman even though their pricing is very nice.

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