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Battle Of The Flagships (57 Headphones Compared) UPDATE: Ultimate Ears UERM added (4/14/13) - Page 76

post #1126 of 3795
11/21/12 at 9:13am

MHOE, I think DavidMahler has made no mystery of the nature of his reviews.

 

You should consider (and I'm not being glib) writing your version of what David did, but based only on measurement data available--including headphones you haven't heard. That is, using only the data (including for headphones you haven't heard, but have used measurements to form impressions of), write about what the headphones sound like.

 

But this isn't the thread for it, so you'd have to start another.

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post #1127 of 3795
11/21/12 at 9:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

You are right... I am so skeptical about any "synergies" and this sort of stuff that it must be apparent more than enough. I am even willing to understand that for your ears, HD800 perform very neutral. But it is going to be extremely difficult to even consider anything like "synergy".

 

I think an important thing to remember when reading any graph, or any review is that neutrality in sound is as much perception as it is scientific.  because human hearing is not flat, the human experience of hearing will yield different opinions on what neutral is.

 

However, if we talk about what measures flat and disregard the human factor, then we still run into the variables that all measuring equipment and practices have a margin of error attached. 

How can it be determined down to the very source, amp, cable, microphone, headphone placement, that anyone will be able to produce an uncolored graph.  I don't think it can be done no matter how much experience you have, or how much money you spend.  I don't believe technology will ever be able to do it 100%.  And yet, the graph of the HD800 shows it to be rather neutral.  A peak on a graph doesn't necessarily imply that the headphone fails at being close to neutral. I've never seen a headphone exhibit a perfectly flat graphed frequency response.  The HD800 gets rather close to the best I've seen.  And yet we're only talking visualizations right now:)

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post #1128 of 3795
11/21/12 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jude View Post

MHOE, I think DavidMahler has made no mystery of the nature of his reviews.

 

You should consider (and I'm not being glib) writing your version of what David did, but based only on measurement data available--including headphones you haven't heard. That is, using only the data (including for headphones you haven't heard, but have used measurements to form impressions of), write about what the headphones sound like.

 

But this isn't the thread for it, so you'd have to start another.

 

That would not make sense as people do not want to read about objective evaluations, they want to decide themselves what to buy based on another's ears and preferences...

 

I have only discussed with David about HD800 being the most neutral headphones in the world... Maybe the theory is wrong but I cannot see the phone measuring more neutral than Stax 009 for example. I am not saying anything against his personal opinions on prefered sound signature, about having one headphone higher on his list because of this and that etc. I just don't think HD800 are near-to-neutral and this is possible to assess objectively. That's why I am discussing about it.

 

I do admire HD800 anyway... More then HE-6, LCD-3, T1, D7000, Audio-technicas etc.


Edited by MHOE - 11/21/12 at 9:29am
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post #1129 of 3795
11/21/12 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

I think an important thing to remember when reading any graph, or any review is that neutrality in sound is as much perception as it is scientific.  because human hearing is not flat, the human experience of hearing will yield different opinions on what neutral is.

 

However, if we talk about what measures flat and disregard the human factor, then we still run into the variables that all measuring equipment and practices have a margin of error attached. 

How can it be determined down to the very source, amp, cable, microphone, headphone placement, that anyone will be able to produce an uncolored graph.  I don't think it can be done no matter how much experience you have, or how much money you spend.  I don't believe technology will ever be able to do it 100%.  And yet, the graph of the HD800 shows it to be rather neutral.  A peak on a graph doesn't necessarily imply that the headphone fails at being close to neutral. I've never seen a headphone exhibit a perfectly flat graphed frequency response.  The HD800 gets rather close to the best I've seen.  And yet we're only talking visualizations right now:)

 

What about Stax SR-009? You do not find it very neutral, more than HD800?

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post #1130 of 3795
11/21/12 at 9:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

What about Stax SR-009? You do not find it very neutral, more than HD800?


I find the SR-009 extremely neutral.  In fact in the review I specify that they are, to me, second with regards to neutrality, only eclipsed by the HD800 (in this regard).  Now, the HD800 has one advantage regarding my assessment.  I have heard the HD800 on over a dozen amplifiers while the SR-009, I have only heard them paired with 2.  But yes, the SR-009 is an exceptionally neutral headphone.  And the SR-009 is far more impressive than the HD800 in several other ways.

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post #1131 of 3795
11/21/12 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post


I find the SR-009 extremely neutral.  In fact in the review I specify that they are, to me, second with regards to neutrality, only eclipsed by the HD800 (in this regard).  Now, the HD800 has one advantage regarding my assessment.  I have heard the HD800 on over a dozen amplifiers while the SR-009, I have only heard them paired with 2.  But yes, the SR-009 is an exceptionally neutral headphone.  And the SR-009 is far more impressive than the HD800 in several other ways.

 

This was the most exciting and useful post from you here at this thread (for me), except the review itself! smily_headphones1.gif

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post #1132 of 3795
11/21/12 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

This was the most exciting and useful post from you here at this thread (for me), except the review itself! smily_headphones1.gif


Ha! Thanks:)  I should add that I've heard at least 10 pairs of the HD800 (and own 2 different sounding pairs) while I have only heard one single pair of the SR-009.

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post #1133 of 3795
11/21/12 at 11:30am

Thank you so much for time and effort it took you to write this terrific comparison, David! You've helped to choose new phones within my budget, and it's going to be a big step up from what I have now (hopefully) :-)

 

P. S. Love the cabinet on the title photo :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiga3mata View Post

I thought that I will never read the equivalent of Darthnut's legendary review.

To what do you refer? Tried searching for it but no luck. Link please?..


Edited by Alexium - 11/21/12 at 11:33am
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post #1134 of 3795
11/21/12 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post


Ha! Thanks:)  I should add that I've heard at least 10 pairs of the HD800 (and own 2 different sounding pairs) while I have only heard one single pair of the SR-009.

 

Based on your review David, I would say every headphone that has "NEUTRAL" in the advantages category, is neutral enough to most of us :)

Also, your hearing "specs" proved it as well. Your hearing is as close to full range as possible :D

Additionally, another great example of neutral product is the whole HIFIman lineup (the HE-5LE being the one I will have the pleasure to own soon)

 

Additionally, if the headphone is completely neutral, I am not really sure it is necessarily good...

As mentioned before, modern recordings are slightly brighter, so you might want to own a slightly warmer headphone to be an actual theoretical all-rounder.

 

Also, in the same regard, the Sennheiser HD800 and HIFIman HE-500,5LE and HE-6 (as well as the Jade Id imagine), while not being completely neutral, are very close to it. Some might perceive their treble as emphasized and bass slightly weaker, while others regard is as a nice airy headphone.

The Audeze, having the opposite "problem", with some considering them slightly bass heavy and highs shy,

 

Now I believe this is remedied simply, by listening to the one headphone. Human brain/ears will adjust to these aspects. In fact I would say these are the most transparent part of your setup :)

 

Now, I have experienced harsh treble/highs with the (in)famous Pro 900. That is also the reason Im shifting to the HE-5LE.

Sure, I got "mostly" used to these aspects of the Pro 900, but I want a better and more neutral headphone :)

Again not completely neutral... After the Pro 900, I am sure I would find it boring.

Also, I might add that the graph of the 900s, while showing a significant overshoot in the bass region, there was no evidence that the highs and treble respectively will be this sharp and this harsh. While you can see they are also emphasized, I was not expecting it to such extent... Merely expecting them to sound crisp and clean, but that wasnt the case. Also the mids are WAY more recessed than the graph would suggest.

To me even though I got used to it, it is a terrible headphone for the value (graph - http://www.headphone.com/headphones/ultrasone-pro-900.php)

 

Just my opinion of course.

Best regards, Luke

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post #1135 of 3795
11/21/12 at 11:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexium View Post

Thank you so much for time and effort it took you to write this terrific comparison, David! You've helped to choose new phones within my budget, and it's going to be a big step up from what I have now (hopefully) :-)

 

P. S. Love the cabinet on the title photo :)

 

To what do you refer? Tried searching for it but no luck. Link please?..

Thanks! I designed the cabinet myself using Google Sketch.  That ended up being a headache but I'm happy with the final results:)

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post #1136 of 3795
11/21/12 at 12:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post

 

Based on your review David, I would say every headphone that has "NEUTRAL" in the advantages category, is neutral enough to most of us :)

Also, your hearing "specs" proved it as well. Your hearing is as close to full range as possible :D

Additionally, another great example of neutral product is the whole HIFIman lineup (the HE-5LE being the one I will have the pleasure to own soon)

 

Additionally, if the headphone is completely neutral, I am not really sure it is necessarily good...

As mentioned before, modern recordings are slightly brighter, so you might want to own a slightly warmer headphone to be an actual theoretical all-rounder.

 

Also, in the same regard, the Sennheiser HD800 and HIFIman HE-500,5LE and HE-6 (as well as the Jade Id imagine), while not being completely neutral, are very close to it. Some might perceive their treble as emphasized and bass slightly weaker, while others regard is as a nice airy headphone.

The Audeze, having the opposite "problem", with some considering them slightly bass heavy and highs shy,

 

Now I believe this is remedied simply, by listening to the one headphone. Human brain/ears will adjust to these aspects. In fact I would say these are the most transparent part of your setup :)

 

Now, I have experienced harsh treble/highs with the (in)famous Pro 900. That is also the reason Im shifting to the HE-5LE.

Sure, I got "mostly" used to these aspects of the Pro 900, but I want a better and more neutral headphone :)

Again not completely neutral... After the Pro 900, I am sure I would find it boring.

Also, I might add that the graph of the 900s, while showing a significant overshoot in the bass region, there was no evidence that the highs and treble respectively will be this sharp and this harsh. While you can see they are also emphasized, I was not expecting it to such extent... Merely expecting them to sound crisp and clean, but that wasnt the case. Also the mids are WAY more recessed than the graph would suggest.

To me even though I got used to it, it is a terrible headphone for the value (graph - http://www.headphone.com/headphones/ultrasone-pro-900.php)

 

Just my opinion of course.

Best regards, Luke

Thanks Luke.  I bolded a very key section of your post.  One which I highly agree with. Brain burn-in.  That was something I grew weary of when doing this review.  I tried to be very careful about it.  If you're listening to one headphone for 2 hours and then another  for 2 minutes, the brain will be used to the one for which it has spent a lot more time.  It may still favor the new one, but it won't be as used it.

 

I haven't spent much time with the Pro900.  I saw your excellent review and I agree with much of it.  I had the Proline 700 for years and it has some similar sonic qualities/issues. 

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post #1137 of 3795
11/21/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

Thanks Luke.  I bolded a very key section of your post.  One which I highly agree with. Brain burn-in.  That was something I grew weary of when doing this review.  I tried to be very careful about it.  If you're listening to one headphone for 2 hours and then another  for 2 minutes, the brain will be used to the one for which it has spent a lot more time.  It may still favor the new one, but it won't be as used it.

 

I haven't spent much time with the Pro900.  I saw your excellent review and I agree with much of it.  I had the Proline 700 for years and it has some similar sonic qualities/issues. 

Thank you!!

 

Im glad you liked it :) Although the picture quality leave much to be desired

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post #1138 of 3795
11/21/12 at 4:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post

Thank you!!

 

Im glad you liked it :) Although the picture quality leave much to be desired

it was great!  

 

being that you're both from Czech Republic, I've started to pretend that you and MHOE are alteregos :) LOL

 

I mean that in a complimentary way to both of you:)


Edited by DavidMahler - 11/21/12 at 4:51pm
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post #1139 of 3795
11/21/12 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexium View Post


To what do you refer? Tried searching for it but no luck. Link please?..

I did....on post #1110. Be warned though that it is a review of mostly the Stax SR-007. It is very informative in an academic kind of way. I made the comparison here to David's review because of similarities in dedication and passion to the headphone community so apparent in both reviews.
Edited by tiga3mata - 11/21/12 at 5:22pm
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post #1140 of 3795
11/21/12 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMahler View Post

it was great!  

 

being that you're both from Czech Republic, I've started to pretend that you and MHOE are alteregos :) LOL

 

I mean that in a complimentary way to both of you:)

 

 

Naw I think me and MHOE are more like alter egos than Luke,,  biggrin.gif

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