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Sony MH1 R&D Story ...and discussion. - Page 13

post #181 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriv View Post

I very much like the results after I drilled very small holes in the supplied silicone sleeves. You may have to click on the above image to see the holes in the enlarged photo. (The story is continued from here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/594945/6-panasonic-rp-hje120-surprisingly-usable/15#post_8854187. Basically, I played with the cheaper Panasonic RP-HJE120 before deciding how to change the sound of the MH1C.)

 

I ended up making four tiny holes per tip--still a bit bassy, but I didn't want to overdo it. With this "mod", the bass response now more closely matches what I hear from live music. The timbre of musical notes has been improved since the proportions of the fundamental and the harmonics is in better balance. After some time with a tone generator and matching the volume, I can tell that (for my ears at least) the response above 1 kHz hasn't changed much.

 

I normally use a parametric EQ like Equalizer or Accudio, but many apps like Pandora, YouTube, and Netflix can't use them. The punctured tips have the potential to match the huge bass reducer filter that I use on the MH1C. They actually sound pretty good now. The time domain characteristics aren't completely independent of the magnitude response, so I would guess that the transient response has been improved also. I'd love to see impulse response and CSD measurements on these things after EQ or after using these tips.

 

Isolation isn't as good after the change, but I'd rather trade that for better spectral balance. Also, driver flex during insertion has been greatly reduced. The technique also worked for the HJE120, but I can see it working for any bassy IEM, e.g., UE100, Klipsch S4, etc.

 

If we can find a way to get controlled leakage from foam ear tips, we may be able to neutralize the sound of v-shaped IEMs.

 

 

I forgot the size of the drill bit, but I started with the smallest #80 wire gauge bit and went down from there. A #75 is still too small. With the one pictured above, it took many passes of the bit through the hole, and in both directions before I got the opening of the desired size. I had considered other ways of puncturing the sleeve, like using a needle tip with a soldering iron, but I never got to try them because the drill worked well enough.

Great for sharing this, achieving controlled leakage with MH1 is not an easy task. However, if tuned carefully they can give an impression of the bass being tighter ...Warmth and depth due the sub-bass being leaky will be lost, but for those looking for some faster bass this could be a way to go...  if i get some more time i''ll try to provide some measurements on how MH1 reacts on the front leakage.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bina View Post

To Sead:

 

I was wondering, are MH1C still in production or are we just buying from some large stock, that will in some time run out?

Yes, MH1c are still in production. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuckinFutz View Post

'.' to you too!
Ironically, now the argueing has abated, the thread has died a bit.
I'd like to ask a question to Sead; is there another material that can be used to tune earphones that doesn't attenuate the entire spectrum as much as the foam in these?
The reason I ask is my only gripe with the MH1C is how power hungry they are and just wondered if there is an alternative material.
Thanks in advance.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

It's part of the tune. as efficiency goes up by less filter, the response evenness likely suffers and the efficiency difference wont be very great and still related to the driver's original design parameters as well. You likely traded some efficiency for bass response. I'm surprised at how often the inefficiency is commented on as I think it's more than fine and see it as a non issue.

 

Some of the tuning may be unseen at the driver opening to the nozzle. It's likely small enough to offer some resistance tuning of it's own. Perhaps Sead could comment.

 

Right, it's part of the acoustical tuning... Actually, the mesh is one that is responsible for the most of the attenuation in mid- lower treble area, with kind of a U-shape impact. Foam on the other hand do not have so much influence on the overall sensitivity, it rather works as a "smoothing" filter for the upper mids and treble area. Anyhow, there are always trade offs,  in this case i chose to prioritize overall smoothness and sub bass boost... It's true that MH1 needs some juice to really shines through, and they might be on the edge with some smartphones especially those with a high output impedance, but they should work fine with the most external amps. 


Edited by Sead - 11/20/12 at 3:18pm
post #182 of 232

Out of curiosity.

How would choosing to wear them in an over ear versus straight down manner change the signature?

Of course this would mean forgoing the use of the controls, but is the sound affected by this since the orientation of the driver is essentially inverted?

 

Also. If you were to work on these iems today, how would you go about increasing the speed of the bass response and decreasing it's decay time?

Would this require an entirely new driver? or is it simply a matter of tuning?


Edited by atomikn00b - 11/21/12 at 8:55am
post #183 of 232

Real impressed that so much went into a low end IEM

Wonder what goes into the high end ones

post #184 of 232

Well, I ordered two of them, MH1 and MH1C.

 

 

I have a couple questions for Sony.  Which 'Sony' are you exactly?  In which country?

 

 

What are the main differences - if any - between digital EQ and analog EQ?  I.e., such as using a parametric equalizer to achieve desired sound, versus performing modifications on the MH1 like removing the filter?

post #185 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

Well, I ordered two of them, MH1 and MH1C.

 

 

I have a couple questions for Sony.  Which 'Sony' are you exactly?  In which country?

 

 

What are the main differences - if any - between digital EQ and analog EQ?  I.e., such as using a parametric equalizer to achieve desired sound, versus performing modifications on the MH1 like removing the filter?

MH1 comes from Sony Mobile- Sweden

 

- Performing mods to shape the sound will lead to both micro and macro level impact. 

- Using standard EQ in i.e. smartphones will affect only macro level.

 

micro level -> IEM's unique signature, smoothness vs harshness, ability to produce details...etc.

macro level -> IEM's main signature, overall frequency balance properties, i.e. bassy, neutral, mid centric, etc. 

 

Anyhow, I suggest to use EQ in the first place if your intention is to tune in the overall balance, as MH1 will react very friendly to standard EQ, thanks to it's smooth response.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarageBoy View Post

Real impressed that so much went into a low end IEM

Wonder what goes into the high end ones

Hehe, the only thing that is low end here is MH1's price.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomikn00b View Post

Out of curiosity.

How would choosing to wear them in an over ear versus straight down manner change the signature?

Of course this would mean forgoing the use of the controls, but is the sound affected by this since the orientation of the driver is essentially inverted?

 

Also. If you were to work on these iems today, how would you go about increasing the speed of the bass response and decreasing it's decay time?

Would this require an entirely new driver? or is it simply a matter of tuning?

Wearing style is not supposed to affect the sound, well at least not if you manage to achieve proper fit in both cases... Regarding your second question: I can not go into the details how would I go with the tuning today, however parameters like speed and decay (if we are talking from subjective point of view) are related to both driver performance as well as frequency curve shape.   

post #186 of 232

Sead,

I see that MH1 is made in China.

Aren't you concerned about fakes or clones that use the same tuning and driver?

Or is the pricing purposely kept low to minimize counterfeits?

Thanks

post #187 of 232

Originally Posted by Sead View Post

 

MH1 comes from Sony Mobile- Sweden

 

- Performing mods to shape the sound will lead to both micro and macro level impact. 

- Using standard EQ in i.e. smartphones will affect only macro level.

 

micro level -> IEM's unique signature, smoothness vs harshness, ability to produce details...etc.

macro level -> IEM's main signature, overall frequency balance properties, i.e. bassy, neutral, mid centric, etc. 

 

Anyhow, I suggest to use EQ in the first place if your intention is to tune in the overall balance, as MH1 will react very friendly to standard EQ, thanks to it's smooth response. 

 

 

Are you writing from Sony Mobile - Sweden?  Thanks for the very good explanation on equalizers.

post #188 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

Originally Posted by Sead View Post

 

MH1 comes from Sony Mobile- Sweden

 

- Performing mods to shape the sound will lead to both micro and macro level impact. 

- Using standard EQ in i.e. smartphones will affect only macro level.

 

micro level -> IEM's unique signature, smoothness vs harshness, ability to produce details...etc.

macro level -> IEM's main signature, overall frequency balance properties, i.e. bassy, neutral, mid centric, etc. 

 

Anyhow, I suggest to use EQ in the first place if your intention is to tune in the overall balance, as MH1 will react very friendly to standard EQ, thanks to it's smooth response. 

 

 

Are you writing from Sony Mobile - Sweden?  Thanks for the very good explanation on equalizers.

 

Note that he specified "standard EQ on smartphones".  Those will only affect macro level because of their coarse adjustment.  Something like Electri-Q from PiccoloNamek's thread can affect micro as well as macro level biggrin.gif In fact if you read between the lines in Sead's full article you'll see that they basically use an advanced parametric EQ in the prototype phase:

 

Quote:
Firstly, target curve candidates are tuned by “golden ears”!  This step is performed using DSP and suitable IEMs, where signal processing is used to mimic and adapt to any desired response.
post #189 of 232

Even parametric EQ can't fix everything in course line and the circuits themselves are often audible even when flat or as soon as a cursor is moved any amount to activate them, at least in consumer type apps. There's trade offs with just about anything.

post #190 of 232

Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

 

 

Note that he specified "standard EQ on smartphones".  Those will only affect macro level because of their coarse adjustment.  Something like Electri-Q /

 

 

While it's true that the standard applications on smartphones don't have a very good EQ, have you tried Neutron player in Android?  It uses all the Q slopes and octave widths you're so very fond of ...

 

Using the MH1...

 

- start Neutron

- click on settings

- scroll down to and click on "reset gain and EQ"

- scroll up and click on "equalizer"

- set low-band gain to -4.07

- set high-band gain to +4.07

 

I noticed some users complained (on a different site) the volume isn't high enough in these when set to max in their phone, which I think is true as well... so a portable amplifier might help too, like the iBasso D-Zero or something?

 


 

On my computer in uLilith media player using the MH1, I reduced the bass -7dB from 100Hz to 250Hz, then increased 16kHz by 4dB.  Since then I've been listening to the same 5 songs for a few hours on repeat (CD - L'Ame Imortelle - Fallen Angel), it is pretty insanely dazzling for a smartphone bundled IEM, especially for the typical user.

 

 

After my basic EQ adjustment in uLilith, it knocks out most audiophile IEM's up to a pretty high level too.  I could say it sounds better than every single Jays product (except for the q-Jays), and Sony's own entire XBA series, haha!

 

However, I'm not going to say it rivals or excels the Final Audio Adagio V, Hifiman RE272, Phonak Audeo PFE232, or JH Audio JH11... since it very clearly doesn't, not even close (with any equalizer...).

 

However 2... I think if the designer/s here were given less economic constraint and could release an RRP $200 product, I'm sure Sony Mobile would be making Final Audio, Phonak, HiFiMAN and even JH Audio a little nervous. =)

post #191 of 232

Hmm yeah, with those Neutron settings in my smartphone I just tried a portable amplifier and some trance, results are extremely good for the price.

 

Funny, I can only truly appreciate this IEM with less bass, more highs, and a lot of extra power with a portable amplifier.


Edited by kiteki - 11/24/12 at 5:26am
post #192 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post


After my basic EQ adjustment in uLilith, it knocks out most audiophile IEM's up to a pretty high level too.  I could say it sounds better than every single Jays product (except for the q-Jays), and Sony's own entire XBA series, haha!

I can't speak for the xba-1, 2 or 4, but the consensus amongst people who own both the mh1c and the xba-3 (myself included) seems to be that the mh1c has approx 75-80% of the SQ of the xba-3.
post #193 of 232
Originally Posted by WAYNENUMM View Post
I can't speak for the xba-1, 2 or 4, but the consensus amongst people who own both the mh1c and the xba-3 (myself included) seems to be that the mh1c has approx 75-80% of the SQ of the xba-3.

 

Nah, you just gotta get that consumeristic mid-bass in the MH1 way down, and listen to it's mids and highs.  I think dsnuts implied the MH1C is better than the XBA-3, in one of his comments.

 

The XBA-3 is better in some ways, yes, for sure, but in my view Sony screwed it up in the crossovers (by not using any............) which I think made me stop listening to it after half an hour every time I tried, then I tried the XBA-4, same error in that one, no idea what they were thinking, but they seem to have attempted to improve them (I hope) with the new XBA-30 and XBA-40, which says something. =]

 

A lot of people have disliked the XBA series since their release, then again, you set your expectations high when you see the words "Sony" and "multi-armature", I wanted it to sound like the UM Mage or something. =/

 

I am a Sony fan btw, don't like dissing them, don't like average IEM's by them either.  They invented the IEM and portable audio, after all. =]

 


 

Now back to the MH1, does anyone know what is up with Rin Choi's graph of it?  with 1kHz set at 90dB, it looks like the bass is up ~17dB higher, srsly... 17?!  Even measured at shallow insertion?

 

My JVC FXD80 has harder hitting bass, in the subs..., with songs with sub-woofer like effects the FXD is clearly tighter, cleaner and louder, here's an FR of it... http://sonove.angry.jp/jvckenwood_HAFXD80.html

 

Shallow or deep, really, no difference... examples of music used... Techmaster PEB - Bassgasm, Joe - Tonight

post #194 of 232

if 3 mm away is rin's idea of 'shallow' insertion then I must be at least 1 cm off.  Pretty sure he likes to stick things ultra deep where as the mh1c looks like the advertising pictures when I use them.

post #195 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

Nah, you just gotta get that consumeristic mid-bass in the MH1 way down, and listen to it's mids and highs.  I think dsnuts implied the MH1C is better than the XBA-3, in one of his comments.

Dsnuts has consistently said that the mh1c has up to 80% of the SQ of the xba-3. Possibly you are thinking of these comments of his:
Quote:
AND. For the guys that own the XB90EX. The Ele dac sound stupendous and scales even better than the XBA-3 using it. So far using the Ele dac the synergy is like this. All 3 earphones sound great but so far it is. MH1C > XB90 > XBA-3

I noticed the XBA-3 don't need sound enhancement to sound their best.This being said I still recommend trying the Ele dac..I also noticed dynamic drivers scales better with more power or sound enhancement over armatures.
Quote:
Oh damn. I don't know which actually sounds better with the Ele Dac. The MH1s or the XB90s. Lol. It is a toss up right now. If you guys own both it is a win win. The mids are even more pronounced on the XB90EX and even better detail using the Ele. But the sound is so smooth using the MH1C. More dynamics to your dynamics. Then I just threw on the XBA-3. Wow.. All 3 sound great. No loosers here. It is a win win win.

So yeah, if you hook up the mh1c and the xba3 to the Ele Dac, they all sound great (which is pretty cool btw, and which is one reason I am probably going to get the Ele dac).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

The XBA-3 is better in some ways, yes, for sure, but in my view Sony screwed it up in the crossovers (by not using any............) which I think made me stop listening to it after half an hour every time I tried, then I tried the XBA-4, same error in that one, no idea what they were thinking, but they seem to have attempted to improve them (I hope) with the new XBA-30 and XBA-40, which says something. =]

All I am doing is basing my impressions on what I am hearing, and it seems to be consistent with others as well. So, I guess that we will just have to disagree agreeably. And because this is OT, I will cease and desist now smily_headphones1.gif
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