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Sony MH1 R&D Story ...and discussion. - Page 2

post #16 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by prone2phone View Post

looking at the graphs it seems MH1C was built with flat frequency in mind, but they sound much bassier than other so called 'flat' sounding iems, or I missunderstood something? 

 

"During tuning procedure target frequency response is used as a guideline. Final touch is always performed by subjective evaluations..."

I think the answer may be there in the document. wink.gif

 

Thx @ClieOS for making this interesting R&D Story available. smile_phones.gif

post #17 of 232

wow.

the target is actually very very close to the FR graph that comes with the Unique Melody Merlins.

I'm amazed at the research and engineering involved with producing this iem.

 

Was the target audience from the beginning the general consumer and not the so-called "hi-fi" seeking group?
I'm wondering because it is so conveniently priced.

 

I would have presumed that a device intended to be used with a smartphone would have its focus on functionality and comfort rather than audio quality.

post #18 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomikn00b View Post

wow.

the target is actually very very close to the FR graph that comes with the Unique Melody Merlins.

I'm amazed at the research and engineering involved with producing this iem.

 

Was the target audience from the beginning the general consumer and not the so-called "hi-fi" seeking group?
I'm wondering because it is so conveniently priced.

 

I would have presumed that a device intended to be used with a smartphone would have its focus on functionality and comfort rather than audio quality.

 

Why not both? 

The MSRP for these are $59.99, still ridiculously good. 

post #19 of 232

Thanks Sead & ClieOS for this opportunity to learn the background about a great IEM.

  • Was MH1 always designed to be a "headset" instead of generic IEM?  Were there any sacrifices made because of that?
  • How was the R&D resource/effort/philosophy different from the other Sony IEMs (the MDR and XBA lines)?  Sony Mobile vs other Sony department?  Japan vs Western?
  • Any concerns about knock-offs, especially with the vast different pricings we already see online.

Thanks.


Edited by jjmai - 10/31/12 at 11:42pm
post #20 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by marab View Post

@Sead
So, there is this thing I always wondered about, and I'm glad that there's a possibility to ask actual engineer about it, I even created an account here because of it ;)
Is an IEM burn-in really a thing? Most users here tend to think so, and generally there is this opinion in IEM-concerned disscusions, that this is an actuall thing. 
And let's assume this really is an issue, so the quesion I have is why manufacturers don't do IEM burn-in before putting the product in the package and delivering it to sellers? It shouldn't be a problem to play pink noise or music or anything else on IEMs in production line?

Second thing, are there any other perks to micro drivers aside their size? Recently (generally I follow IEM market only when I have to buy a pair, so I might be wrong here) there appeared many interesting products based on such drivers, and as far as I know, such drivers were not popular f.e. 3 years ago, so I wonder about that. Also, manufacturers tended to brag about the size - the bigger driver the better.

 

 

Ughh that's a tough one... Well, as i mentioned in the article hearing/brain is very complex mechanism, to be honest i haven't tried to measure any effect of burn in on the MH1, so i cannot tell if there is anything measurable? On the other hand, there might be an effect of the "perception" after few hours of usage and perception is what matters. But the actuall parameters behind it, well i need to come back this... Anyhow burn-in in production would be a very costly procedure, something that is out of scope for mass- production.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by prone2phone View Post

looking at the graphs it seems MH1C was built with flat frequency in mind, but they sound much bassier than other so called 'flat' sounding iems, or I missunderstood something? 

If you read carefully section for "searching for the target" you will find that target curve is related to "audio experience" rather than flat or neutral response. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by safer View Post

Just wonder which journal would you submit the article to? Nice reading.

Thanks... actually this article is specially for written for audio enthusiast like you guys. Intention here is to share my passion for audio development with someone how actually understand and appreciate all these details that went into design of these IEMs. Also hopefully this will lead to constructive discussion and kind of a global feedback between users and developers, hopefully resulting in even better products in the future.  

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickdohc View Post

i just want to know is,  why are they so cheap?  biggrin.gif      a mistake or what?
 

MH1 is designed with high price/performance ratio in mind... There are lot of parameters that influence the cost, where mass-production is one of major forces. Tricky part with mass production is to secure good quality, but that's another story. 

post #21 of 232

Hi Sead,

 

Is there a specific reason for the flat cable and j cable design? Or was it just fashion related at that time?

Great product, thanks! Too bad it doesn't appear to be bundled with sony phones anymore...

post #22 of 232
Thank you very much for your contribution to this community. That was the best explanatory guide I've seen on graphs, really really cool!

Hats off to you my friend.
post #23 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post


There is a hole (or should I say half a hole) on the top side where the plastic and metal met, so I'll call it vented.

 Bass tuning available. wink_face.gif

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sead View Post

 

As ClieOS have mentioned, there is a hole on the back- chamber, but no venting on the front chamber. Micro drivers, due their physical nature are very sensitive to the leakage/ front vents, so in order to achieve good bass quality and extension, I would say sealing is a must. 

 

 

 

 Just saw this response. By front chamber, do you mean the one coupled to ear canal or are there 2 chambers behind the driver? One to seal and one for connections etc. I get that any vent on the tip side would reduce bass and on the backside can increase it. I could see a lack of back pressure also being an issue with certain designs on insertion due to over excursion of a driver as well though likely rare.


Edited by goodvibes - 11/1/12 at 6:41am
post #24 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

 Bass tuning available. wink_face.gif

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sead View Post

 

As ClieOS have mentioned, there is a hole on the back- chamber, but no venting on the front chamber. Micro drivers, due their physical nature are very sensitive to the leakage/ front vents, so in order to achieve good bass quality and extension, I would say sealing is a must. 

 

 

 

 Just saw this response. By front chamber, do you mean the one coupled to ear canal or are there 2 chambers behind the driver? One to seal and one for connections etc. I get that any vent on the tip side would reduce bass and on the backside can increase it. I could see a lack of back pressure also being an issue with certain designs on insertion due to over excursion of a driver as well though likely rare.

 

I mean coupling to the ear canal, there is only one chamber behind the driver.... Yes you are right, vent on the tip side is useful in attempt to reduce pressure, occlusion effect, cable microphonics etc, and is normally associated to bass roll off....Anyhow, it might be a good thing from comfort point of view , however these front vents suits better for larger driver designs as they are easier to control and doesn't give that much bass roll off compered to smaller drivers... Regarding backside vent it is one of tuning parameters controlling the bass shape.   

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by milford30 View Post

Hi Sead,

 

Is there a specific reason for the flat cable and j cable design? Or was it just fashion related at that time?

Great product, thanks! Too bad it doesn't appear to be bundled with sony phones anymore...

Yes, flat cables where fashion related at that time, and I would say these are the largest drawback in MH1 headset. If cable is not secured with a clip, they will eventually pull out the earpieces, especially left earpiece due some additional wight from the remote control. So, stiffness in MH1 flat cable is one nasty parameter, another one is cable area and surface structure as they will induce some cable microphonics.   

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomikn00b View Post

wow.

the target is actually very very close to the FR graph that comes with the Unique Melody Merlins.

I'm amazed at the research and engineering involved with producing this iem.

 

Was the target audience from the beginning the general consumer and not the so-called "hi-fi" seeking group?
I'm wondering because it is so conveniently priced.

 

I would have presumed that a device intended to be used with a smartphone would have its focus on functionality and comfort rather than audio quality.

 

Well, target audience where basically all smartphone users, looking for a great audio experience. Pricing, needs to be consumer friendly otherwise no one will buy it, especielly considering that market do not expect that kind great audio quality from a cheep headset. But i hope we can change that view a little bit.   

post #25 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sead View Post

Yes, flat cables where fashion related at that time, and I would say these are the largest drawback in MH1 headset. If cable is not secured with a clip, they will eventually pull out the earpieces, especially left earpiece due some additional wight from the remote control. So, stiffness in MH1 flat cable is one nasty parameter, another one is cable area and surface structure as they will induce some cable microphonics.   

 

 
I would love to recable these but I don't know how to deal with flat cables.
If Sony would sell the exact same earphones with same tuning but with improved cables, I think that could be the most recommended earphones on head-fi and possibly a best-seller.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sead View Post

Well, target audience where basically all smartphone users, looking for a great audio experience. Pricing, needs to be consumer friendly otherwise no one will buy it, especielly considering that market do not expect that kind great audio quality from a cheep headset. But i hope we can change that view a little bit.   

 

 

I think you have.

There's been a steady crop of affordable earphones with incredible value but the MH1C, even at its MSRP of $60, is an astonishing bargain.

post #26 of 232

May I give a song to that'll shred your MH1C's....Bluetech's Prayers for rain, (Dub mix).

One must get this in Flac to get all the little details to come out but damn do these headphones make this POP POP POP :P


Prepare to drift away

post #27 of 232
Dear Sead,

Just bought a pair of MH1C and I must say. Frequency response wise these are the most impeccably engineered pair of phones I've ever heard. Even besting the Etymotic MC5 and ER-4P. Here's the FR curve I came up for them plugged in my ear with small tips:



I did not refer to the graph you provided when making the FR curve. I play a loudness-compensated sine sweep using Sinegen through the phones in my ears and adjust levels in a parametric EQ until I hear a flat frequency response. The result inverted is the FR curve shown here.

These only have one shallow plateau in the FR to my ears. Even the etys with its much vaunted accuracy tuning had a big 10dB spike between 7 and 8kHz whatever tips I use. With these I just put on the small stock tips and BAM.

Here you can find a list of ear-tested FR for lots of other cheap IEMs. Nothing comes close to your jewels.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/633102/budget-iems-review-3rd-budget-review-philips-she3580-posted
I didn't believe it would be possible to design IEMs that can play my music without parametric EQ with high quality, your design just shattered my preconception.

By the way did you get my private message? biggrin.gif
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 11/1/12 at 10:17pm
post #28 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpiredLabel View Post

May I give a song to that'll shred your MH1C's....Bluetech's Prayers for rain, (Dub mix).
...
Prepare to drift away

...that was different

post #29 of 232

Cool to hear you tried something new, got a song to throw our way? Im always up for a suggestion :P
 

post #30 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Dear Sead,
Just bought a pair of MH1C and I must say. Frequency response wise these are the most impeccably engineered pair of phones I've ever heard. Even besting the Etymotic MC5 and ER-4P. Here's the FR curve I came up for them plugged in my ear with small tips:

I did not refer to the graph you provided when making the FR curve. I play a loudness-compensated sine sweep using Sinegen through the phones in my ears and adjust levels in a parametric EQ until I hear a flat frequency response. The result inverted is the FR curve shown here.
These only have one shallow plateau in the FR to my ears. Even the etys with its much vaunted accuracy tuning had a big 10dB spike between 7 and 8kHz whatever tips I use. With these I just put on the small stock tips and BAM.
Here you can find a list of ear-tested FR for lots of other cheap IEMs. Nothing comes close to your jewels.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/633102/budget-iems-review-3rd-budget-review-philips-she3580-posted
I didn't believe it would be possible to design IEMs that can play my music without parametric EQ with high quality, your design just shattered my preconception.
By the way did you get my private message? biggrin.gif

The one aspect of micro drivers that has been rather consistent in the ones I've auditioned is a varying bit of etch in the highs. I'm not a sparkle type guy. That these don't have it with some extension besides is an accomplishment. Your graph comforts me in that the treble will be to my liking. The bass is about twice what I like but it may be somewhat adjustable and the type of ascending curve it has tends to work pretty well. I got on OK with the realvoice and it had a similar bass curve.

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