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HD800 vs HE500 - Page 58

post #856 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 


Asgard 2?

 

If you recall from all of my posts. I say "Asgard"

 

I hear the 2 is great. On par with the Mjolnir in terms of transparency.

 

As for the Asgard 1 vs. Emotiva

Loose bass, less extension. Upper-mids / treble sounds recessed,  muffled. Overall lack dynamic punch in the bass, treble, and even the mids. Emotiva also has better transparency/detail retreival.

 

And on a side note. SS amps do burn-in. Specifically the caps (measured by scientific instruments, if you're into that kind of thing) Not to mention Jason of Schiit, who engineered the thing also believes in burn-in.

Don't know about the first version of the Asgard, only the stink about the need for a relay delayed output. So far the Asgard 2 is sounding very good.

What engineering study shows anything about capacitor burn in affecting audio? The value of capacitance has a tolerance, that if properly designed should not pose issues. If the design spec'd a cap with too low of a working voltage, expect a burn out. Dielectric Absorption is not relevant to this topic. What characteristic of a capacitor requires burn in?

post #857 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Don't know about the first version of the Asgard, only the stink about the need for a relay delayed output. So far the Asgard 2 is sounding very good.

What engineering study shows anything about capacitor burn in affecting audio? The value of capacitance has a tolerance, that if properly designed should not pose issues. If the design spec'd a cap with too low of a working voltage, expect a burn out. Dielectric Absorption is not relevant to this topic. What characteristic of a capacitor requires burn in?


They actually measure more linear after some burn-in. I think it's been posted in multiple threads. Note, however I'm not sure what equipment was used to measure the thing.

 

Also, since you just got your Asgard 2, see if you hear any differences after 50 to 100 hours, which is what Schiit recommends. I believe Jason has advanced degrees in engineering. If he says burn-in for his amps are real, then who am I to argue? Especially when I hear the same as him regarding his products.

 

In the interest of fan service here is an interesting thread I found on Cap burn-in through Google. It took like 2 seconds.

 

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=751.0

 

Some very interesting conversations you might enjoy/find intriguing


Edited by M-13 - 1/17/14 at 3:06pm
post #858 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 


They actually measure more linear after some burn-in. I think it's been posted in multiple threads. Note, however I'm not sure what equipment was used to measure the thing.

 

Also, since you just got your Asgard 2, see if you hear any differences after 50 to 100 hours, which is what Schiit recommends. I believe Jason has advanced degrees in engineering. If he says burn-in for his amps are real, then who am I to argue? Especially when I hear the same as him regarding his products.

 

In the interest of fan service here is an interesting thread I found on Cap burn-in through Google. It took like 2 seconds.

 

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=751.0

 

Some very interesting conversations you might enjoy/find intriguing

I happen to be an EE. During my career I designed extremely accurate integrating A/D (Analog to Digital) Converters. I used very expensive capacitors and had very expensive test equipment.  I tested (or at least my jr. engineers did for me) a large variety of capacitor types for linearity and Dielectric Absorption due to the nature of the application which required resetting an integrator. I had 500 Mhz analog storage scopes for capturing the effects of a switching FET on the capacitor in an integrator. We're taking stuff way beyond audio perception. I used teflon capacitors, I found the story about burn in for a teflon cap in a phono preamp (a no load circuit) amusing.

In almost all cases this is a bunch of myth which affects subjective perception, something that is rampant in the audio field but a lot of fun for folks to fiddle with. I doubt that you'll find capacitors with wax or leaky oils in audio equipment. The only thing to be concerned with is a capacitor that is used for ac coupling to a load, perhaps a low impedance can. Done improperly, that should be a constant problem, not cured by burn in. If you have a DC coupled amp, common in SS, especially type AB, this is not an issue. The Asgard 2 has a DC coupled output even though it's Class A, which to me is great engineering as it has no DC coupling capacitor, good Schiit. From what I've read on their website they have truly improved the 2nd model Asgard.

post #859 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

I happen to be an EE. During my career I designed extremely accurate integrating A/D (Analog to Digital) Converters. I used very expensive capacitors and had very expensive test equipment.  I tested (or at least my jr. engineers did for me) a large variety of capacitor types for linearity and Dielectric Absorption due to the nature of the application which required resetting an integrator. I had 500 Mhz analog storage scopes for capturing the effects of a switching FET on the capacitor in an integrator. We're taking stuff way beyond audio perception. I used teflon capacitors, I found the story about burn in for a teflon cap in a phono preamp (a no load circuit) amusing.

In almost all cases this is a bunch of myth which affects subjective perception, something that is rampant in the audio field but a lot of fun for folks to fiddle with. I doubt that you'll find capacitors with wax or leaky oils in audio equipment. The only thing to be concerned with is a capacitor that is used for ac coupling to a load, perhaps a low impedance can. Done improperly, that should be a constant problem, not cured by burn in. If you have a DC coupled amp, common in SS, especially type AB, this is not an issue. The Asgard 2 has a DC coupled output even though it's Class A, which to me is great engineering as it has no DC coupling capacitor, good Schiit. From what I've read on their website they have truly improved the 2nd model Asgard.

Hmm... Hmm... you sound way smarter than me. ROFL.

 

I'm surprised you didn't build your own custom amp/dac. I guess Schiit stuff is really that good.

 

So I guess Jason is just lying then and wants everyone to keep his amps and dacs longer in their house waiting for fake burn-in to happen and thus eating into the return policy window.

post #860 of 991

I think only tube amps (actually only tubes) need burn-in.

post #861 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 

Hmm... Hmm... you sound way smarter than me. ROFL.

 

I'm surprised you didn't build your own custom amp/dac. I guess Schiit stuff is really that good.

 

So I guess Jason is just lying then and wants everyone to keep his amps and dacs longer in their house waiting for fake burn-in to happen and thus eating into the return policy window.

The return policy starts later. One usually burns in quality equipment for QA purposes to weed out early failures or purposes of calibration.

Maybe Jason was pulling someone's leg. They also make tube and SS amps to satisfy differing customer tastes and have to be careful of how they fiddle with everyones weirdnesses. I haven't listened much to Schiit's DACs but their amps are quite good, in most cases they sound as good as stuff costing far more. Excellent build quality as well.

Yes I have my own amp that I've been fiddling with. It sounds very good, only no volume control, output delay relay or short circuit protection for the output, one day that'll be there. I'm in middle up upgrading the output transistors for more driving ability and will have to up the power supply to be able to deliver higher voltages and current. Right now I'm using two wall warts to get positive and negative rails. The next big change is to add an active dynamic current source to the driver stage so the output can deliver a big kick across all voltages, must be careful not to add noise or distortion.

post #862 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

The return policy starts later. One usually burns in quality equipment for QA purposes to weed out early failures or purposes of calibration.

Maybe Jason was pulling someone's leg. They also make tube and SS amps to satisfy differing customer tastes and have to be careful of how they fiddle with everyones weirdnesses. I haven't listened much to Schiit's DACs but their amps are quite good, in most cases they sound as good as stuff costing far more. Excellent build quality as well.

Yes I have my own amp that I've been fiddling with. It sounds very good, only no volume control, output delay relay or short circuit protection for the output, one day that'll be there. I'm in middle up upgrading the output transistors for more driving ability and will have to up the power supply to be able to deliver higher voltages and current. Right now I'm using two wall warts to get positive and negative rails. The next big change is to add an active dynamic current source to the driver stage so the output can deliver a big kick across all voltages, must be careful not to add noise or distortion.


I think this is how it starts. And then you get more and more into it and go into business. Start selling amps and dacs you make. This kind of pattern keeps happening on Head-Fi. I can't wait for the first StanD Amps. LOL. You better not say there is any burn-in cuz I will call you out on it even 5 to 10 years from now.

post #863 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 


I think this is how it starts. And then you get more and more into it and go into business. Start selling amps and dacs you make. This kind of pattern keeps happening on Head-Fi. I can't wait for the first StanD Amps. LOL. You better not say there is any burn-in cuz I will call you out on it even 5 to 10 years from now.

Naw, I'm fiddling with my amp for Schitt and Giggles. These days I write risk analysis software for one of those too big to fail Bank/Brokerages. Sad thing that there aren't all that many good paying jobs in the US for hardware engineers as there once was. I really enjoyed the work and had a bunch of engineers and software developers working for me. Too bad that there isn't all that much manufacturing going on in the US, other than Aircraft, heavy equipment, automobiles, military stuff, designer drugs and fatherless children. No offence meant to anyone that might not have a dad.

Didn't I mention the 5 year burn in period :eek:, dang that must have slipped my mind:D 

post #864 of 991

Do you also believe caps all sound the same?

 

Here's some good reading.  

 

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

post #865 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post
 

Do you also believe caps all sound the same?

 

Here's some good reading.  

 

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

No they do not all sound the same. I do think there's some of BS in that article as well. Here's one for you, take two ceramic disc capacitors, place them in parallel and very close together and they will form an extra capacitor between them, using air as a dielectric. It is possible to make a circuit oscillate, become unstable or change the nature of the circuit when doing this in a bad layout. Using smaller tubular capacitors might not do this as they has very little parallel surface. Some capacitors will become nonlinear under load, bad for coupling a class A amp to cans or speakers.

post #866 of 991

One area HE-500 clearly beats HD800: THD%. Did following test by playing a sine wave of 110 Hz and measured the graph for both on same SS chain (Audioengine D3 + Emotiva MiniX). Well at least at 110 Hz. I'll mess with other frequencies later. Edit: Tried 1 kHz and HD800 came up on top slightly.

 

HE-500:

 

HD800 (Note the 3rd and 5th order harmonics):


Edited by Sonido - 1/23/14 at 8:56pm
post #867 of 991

Now that you've started on a new kick, it's time to upgrade your test equipment. So you think amps can get expensive........:eek:

post #868 of 991
post #869 of 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by koiloco View Post

That's What I'm Talking About :beerchug:

post #870 of 991

Got an open-box HD-800 today for $1200 and couldn't be happier.  I had been looking for a headphone to keep my wife from complaining about my listening too loudly to my living room speaker setup, which is an NAD316BEE with Paradigm Studio 10 bookshelves and which suits me perfectly.  In the past week I bought and returned both the HD-600 and the HE-500, in the hopes that I wouldn't need to spend as much as I ended up spending.  Running everything off the headphone out from my NAD receiver, the HD-600 and the HE-500 just didn't convey enough detail/clarity for me in comparison to the Paradigms, but the HD-800 is on another plane entirely and is 95% as good as sitting in the Paradigms' sweet spot.  I found the sibilance/6khz frequency peak to render them almost completely unlistenable, but it's easily EQ-ed away.

 

Now I just need to find a good headphone amp - I tried several at my local audio store, but none are as good as the receiver.

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