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Hifiman IEM's: RE-400 and RE-600 - Page 31

post #451 of 2307

eq-5 probably

 

havent heard the re-400 , but having the re-zero/252/262/272 , i would say the eq-5 were quite a nice iem

 

'

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielKRego View Post

I forgot to mention that I'm also considering the VSonic GR07 MkII, the GR01 and the Fischer Audio DBA-02 MkII in the competition.

 

I really like what I'm reading about the RE-400, but somehow feel I haven't enough information on it yet to be sold.

 

For a budget of 200 USD, does anything beat the RE-400 at a generally neutral frequency response with a detailed reproduction, great separation but without losing out on a natural, convincing body to the bottom end?

post #452 of 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

 

Yes, when you remove the foam, the sound gets similar to RE-ZERO in tonality, but sparklier. RE-ZERO was already very close to ER-4S, RE-400 without filter with extra dampeners must be dead on target or very close - much less peaky than RE-ZERO at the very least.

The foam indirectly act on bass by increasing apparent shell volume. Larger volume improves bass extension up to certain extent. (See Thiele small-signal parameters for an explanation.)

 

Most IEMs are not flat up to 2k - many have some measure of bass bump. Also it's the higher frequencies that are more HRTF dependent, not just preference. The "perfect" ER-4S curve was derived by averaging, so it won't really fit most people perfectly - there was high deviation in higher parts beyond 3 kHz in the studies I've seen.

The pinna notch frequency is pretty personal, but indeed it most often is in 4-7kHz range and depends on the fit.

 

I hate it when people call IEMs sporting just bright or forward highs analytical. This has nothing to do with resolving power, low distortion and no ringing, which is the actual requirement for something to *be* analytical, not some brightness or darkness one way or the other.

The visual analogy would be having a noisy (distortion), but sharpened (ringing) and contrast enhanced (v-shaped) picture with banding artifacts (peaky). (something "analytical" but low fidelity). It's in my opinion much worse than a smooth lower contrast one with little noise and no artifacts. You know, contrast/gamma (frequency response) is easily adjustable - the other artifacts are nowhere near as easy to correct. FR will affect soundstaging, much like having unequal color balance with notches in it would make for a weird complete picture.


It it closer to ER-4S when comparing details, yes. ER-4S is still clearer sounding. But I use RE-400 more now as it is difficult getting a good fit for me with the ER-4S everytime. If I don't get a good fit it sounds plain bad. With RE-400 I easily get a good fit everytime.

 

Although I agree that analytical IEM's should possess those requirements you mention those can almost only be measured by measuring instruments. Can't see Joker's reviews of IEM's mentioning those requirements for him to call something analytical. From Head fi's "Describing Sound - A Glossary" something analytical is "Highly detailed". If treble is too withdrawn/barely noticable I can't see it as analytical (imo). But I understand what you are saying.

 

Also I don't think modding a very neutral sounding IEM can do extremely much to distortion, ringing, artifacts. It would be something completely different to foam mod a RE-272 to give it more treble (a little crazy even imo). I got my other RE-400 today and there isn't a huge difference - I actually like both of them (unmodded and mod). Anyway I don't hear that much of a difference between unmodded and modded regarding distortion (on some occasions mod sounds slightly clearer - not as harsh).

 

Found a difference in sound signature (balance) regarding RE-400 vs older line (RE-ZERO, RE-272):

When listening to Weezer - Hash Pipe the RE-ZERO sounded a little harsh to me because of the guitars being so much upfront (like blasting 1meter from you) especially when all instruments play together. Guitars almost overpower the vocals and even though the signature is "fun" I think it is a little too much unbalanced.

 

RE-272 handles this part better, but I can still sense some of the same signature as in RE-ZERO, but it is better refined.

 

RE-400 sounds very different in this regard. Guitars aren't as pronounced (upfront) but stay in the back so vocals is better indistinguishable from the rest. This sounds a little boring but is imo more natural. It somehow reminds me of the balance in my Sennheiser HD-600 regarding neutrality and I like this.

 

Sure it can be more refined and hopefully will be in the RE-600.

 

Regarding the Rockit R-50: Very detailed but the bass is too off imo. Can hardly hear/feel the kickdrum in the song mentioned above (although this depends a little on which tips you use). I like the RE-400 more because it sounds more natural to me and works with many more genres.


Edited by Deni5 - 3/1/13 at 7:28am
post #453 of 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deni5 View Post


Although I agree that analytical IEM's should possess those requirements you mention those can almost only be measured by measuring instruments. Can't see Joker's reviews of IEM's mentioning those requirements for him to call something analytical. From Head fi's "Describing Sound - A Glossary" something analytical is "Highly detailed". If treble is too withdrawn/barely noticable I can't see it as analytical (imo). But I understand what you are saying.

This is my understanding also. I base my descriptions on what I hear, using the commonly used glossary of terms. If I stray too far from that, I end up leading readers into a maze of subjective semantics.

Still, it is interesting to hear others opinions that put more emphasis on technical measurements.

Insightful comparisons Deni5. Some more vs Re-272 when you're ready :-D
post #454 of 2307

Glad to see the 400s gaining some popularity. Excellent value at $99, and a very nice successor in the RE-ZERO price point in my opinion

post #455 of 2307

with re-400 at 99$

and re-272 at 250(or 200)$

 

i wonder how good the re-600 will be at 400$

post #456 of 2307

Me too, the RE-272 is the best dynamic i have ever heard, perhaps the best universal so i am really excited about the 400!

post #457 of 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swimsonny View Post

Me too, the RE-272 is the best dynamic i have ever heard, perhaps the best universal so i am really excited about the 400!

x Zwei
post #458 of 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nulliverse View Post

Insightful comparisons Deni5. Some more vs Re-272 when you're ready :-D

 

Hi, I did some comparison in an older post in this thread. As I see it RE-272 is the perfected version of the older driver (not sure though if they were using same version for all the older models, probably not but there are sound similarities). Of course some may disagree because some prefer warmth and like the RE-262 more, I can understand that also. Still I find that the new line starting with RE-400 is capable of better balance. As said before it is the technically better one, but it has some small flaws reaching the qualities of RE-272 as it is now. It is a little mid centric. Treble is good but very slightly withdrawn. (still if I had to choose which one to use for all time between RE-272 and RE-400 I would have personally chosen RE-400)

 

You can change the sound signature by modding it. There are a couple of factors dependant on its sound signature.

* Metal housing - look at the difference in sound comparing Grado SR225 vs SR325, one is plastic one is metal

* Bass port - don't know if the older RE- line used this - I can see something that reminds of bass ports on my RE-ZERO but not sure. If you cover the bass port on the RE-400 you loose lots of bass so it does something to the sound.

* Titanium coating - look at the difference in sound comparing Koss Porta Pro and Koss KCS75. One is not titanium coated and one is.

* Neodymium magnet - Able to push lots of air

* 8.5mm Titanium Diapharagm - Should be some advantage to this, not sure but I think it has something to do with how fast/precise it can be

 

These are technical advantages as I see it. The thing that is controlling RE-400's sound signature is the white foam and black T4000-filter. White foam controls 3-7 kHz and T4000 7-infinity kHz as AstralStorm commented earlier in the thread. I tried removing the white foam and did get a less mid centric sound, but you also loose a lot of bass so I had to compensate with an extra T4000-filter as more dampening seems to lead to more bass. But when you dampen more in the 7-infinity region you loose some air and sparkle and some warmth in the vocals (although not noticable on all occasions). You could also do like AstralStorm did by removing the T4000-filter and keeping the white foam. More air and sparkle and bass should be pretty untouched as the white foam is doing the most of the dampening.

 

White foam seems also to control warmth and vocal range (although I don't consider RE-400 a very warm IEM). So you could experiment with different sizes of the white foam - either dampen more or less.

 

If you look at RE-272 it is using T2000-filters. This is a more transparent filter, you can easily see through it (I can easily see the white foam on my RE-272). The T4000 is not that transparent so it is dampening more. I believe it is the T2000 filter that gave the RE-272 that special soundstage/airyness.

 

Even changing different tips does a lot to the sound signature (check AstralStorm's earlier post on this). I think the length of the tip affects airyness - that is why I liked the longstem bi-flange on the RE-272 the most but you also loose a little warmth and bass when using that. There are a lot of mod capabilities so I believe you can get a equally good or perhaps a better IEM than the RE-272 if you mod the RE-400 because it is technically better from the start. You won't get the exact sound signature though, RE-400 is tuned differently towards more balance.

 

If you have tried any mod you will start to realize what capabilities this driver has. I personally believe that when they will finetune and release RE-600 should be amazing and take on most competition soundwise (they are already on the road on perfected balanced sound with the RE-400 imo).


Edited by Deni5 - 3/2/13 at 4:16pm
post #459 of 2307

Some more testing between RE-272 and RE-400. Listened to Metallica - The Unforgiven. There is a guitar solo at 3m 45s+ that I found a little piercing/harsh/too forward on the RE-272 but not on the RE-400. Checked frequency response data for RE-272 on Innerfidelity. I see that there is a high bump in the 1-3kHz region.

Googled what frequency range an electrical guitar plays in and found the following:
E2 (82 Hz) to F6 (1397 Hz) (Open #6 82.407Hz, Open #1 880Hz, #1 25th Fret 1396.91Hz (1.39kHz)

I guess the guitar solo is played in the 1kHz+ region (up to 1kHz RE-272 is pretty flat after that it rises) so maybe that is why I find it a little piercing because of the bump. If that is the case then RE-400 should be more tamed in 1-3kHz region (perhaps this is why it doesn't stand out on first listen aka boring sounding)

Checked Sennheiser HD-600 data for reference and it does not have a bump in 1-3kHZ region. Also listened to the song with my HD-600 and I don't find the guitar solo piercing/harsh.

No matter what mods I do with the filters I don't affect this region directly. Don't even know if it's possible indirectly. Anyway I believe there is a difference here between RE-272 and RE-400 (although I have not seen frequency data on RE-400).

So I wonder a little where RE-600 will go - even more neutral sounding or "fun" sounding.

 

Update:

Found frequency response data on RE-400 (Rin). 1 - 2kHz is almost flat after 2kHz steep roll off. High bump at around 5kHz (much higher than RE-272 it seems).


Edited by Deni5 - 3/3/13 at 9:04am
post #460 of 2307

Just putting RE-400 driver in a slightly larger shell (hard to design), removing the unncecessry damper should be enough. (or some other way to slightly bump the highest end)

Also slightly damping the reverberation - e.g. with extra foam behind the driver.

 

I would keep the metal shells though - it has far more natural reverb than plastic ones and wood tends to bump up the midbass.

post #461 of 2307

"Payment recieved. Waiting for shipping."

 

Wonder how they compare to my HD598's which are for my home-use.

post #462 of 2307
Anyone heard a release date for the re-600 ?

I'm so impressed with the re-400, I'm poised to order the big brother....

Strong statement here, but I'm thinking they may compliment my Merlin's so well I could see myself selling my 1+2.... :-P
post #463 of 2307

Last I heard from Fang himself is either this or next month.

post #464 of 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post

Last I heard from Fang himself is either this or next month.

I really hope that it's true! After hearing the RE-400 and being so impressed from them for their $99 price-tag, I can't wait to hear what Fang will bring for $399.

post #465 of 2307

Subbed.  Interested in the 600...popcorn.gif

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