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Analog Squared Paper Discussion Thread. - Page 153

post #2281 of 3704
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmedium View Post Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I wake this morning to find the subject that is dear to my heart being discussed..Isolation!

As many of you know I have been experimenting with this since day one. First a cradle to support the amp when in vertical position but of late using the amp flat which I have found slight sonic gains in using that way.

I first went the Still-points methodology route which is to mechanically decouple the amp and transmit electrical vibrations produced by the amp away from it to then dissipate to ground. I tried this with brass and wood (Oak) cones.

What it did in the positive was to give transients more speed and the music felt it had more life and energy. The Amp rested on the Oak or Brass feet which were mounted on a large slab of Granite. My experiments then stopped as the amp had to go back for modification but in that time I started to read about isolation and the various materials and what was best for tubes.

Now, the Still-point route is wonderful for solid state apparently but not so good for tubes so I devised a home made solution combining all the things I had read. In stayed the Granite, out went the brass but the Oak stayed to be modified.

We still need to turn the electrical vibrations to heat so as to dissipate them but we need something with more damping so that the tubes are not too lively. Imagine pinging an old incandescent light bulb, you can hear the filaments rustle and ping and it can end up with the filaments breaking or shorting. Now, the grid in a tube is far stronger but it is still vulnerable to the vibration and as I found out recently in comparing the two approaches there are substantial sonic gains to be made when treating this amp as a home tube amp, not a portable as Gavin has now found. Cork is a wonderful material to both damp and turn electrical vibration into mechanical and thus heat which is easily dissipated

So my method which I covered a while back but will repeat here is to use the granite base as a support. On to that go four large blobs of Blu-Tac (the visco-elastic putty that one puts posters on the wall with). On to this goes a 3/4" slab of marine ply which I covered with a vinyl wrap (the vinyl in my experience stabilized the wood and damped it a little more). This is the top base.

On top of this go three smaller blobs of Blu-Tac on which the Oak feet sit. The pictures below will explain it more but in detail I made the Oak feet into layered isolation feet. The rounded section rests on the blobs of Blu-Tac and the flat base is the support for the amp. On to the base I smeared a thin Layer of Blu-Tac on to which I placed a disc of cork which is approximately 2mm thick.

Two of these feet at the front under each transformer and one in the middle at the back. I have found three better than four as four gives too much damping I have found.

The sonic results are quite remarkable. My "pingiest" tubes are the Marconi's but they are also amongst my favourite in terms of depth, transparency, bass and texture. But they are noisy with the tinging sounds of the filaments (this is not tube noise by the way and does not show a failing tube like rustling noise does) So tubes display more tinging, others less, it just is..

But the tinging was annoying as it showed up every time I turned the volume or moved the cable or touched the case. I can say with this isolation method the tinging has almost disappeared. What this isolation method has also done is create an even inkier black background, tightened up and deepened the bass, given mid's more intimacy and more air to the top end. All the good stuff!

The last part is my "Shakti" solution! I had a small piece of Granite left so coated the base with the cork/Blu-Tac solution and rest this on top of the amp between the transformers. What this has done is more subtle but the improvements are there in terms of increasing the improvements from my isolation idea's.

Now I know this all looks terribly amateur and not slick at all and I am sure that there are far more attractive solutions that do the same thing that one can purchase but I would rather spend the several hundred bucks they cost on another set of headphones and spend what I did which was about $15 in total for this DIY solution. I am sure it can be "prettied up" a bit for the BWFH (as dear old Ken Kessler would say) factor biggrin.gif

Hope I have not droned on too much and you found this interesting. Here are so quick pictures!

AppleMark

AppleMark

AppleMark

Oh yes, the Rolls Royce thing is a gift I received for attending the launch party of the new Phantom II last year. I have found it makes a great base to rest my DAP on when listening to the amp! Its made of Oak in the Rolls Royce wood workshops in Goodwood!

 

 

Awesome post Ian!!!

 

Thanks for confirming my beliefs that a Shakti Stone is the way to go........I have no DIY skills whatsoever nor any tools at home and the only way forward is to buy retail products.

post #2282 of 3704
Ian, i knew you will come to this discutions :-))). Thanks for your advices.
post #2283 of 3704

I ended up ordering these isolation/dampening products as they are relatively cheap and have received praise from many people. Including stereophile and 6moons.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P4VYDU/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E1P5O74/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P4JS2Y/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

 

post #2284 of 3704
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachchen1996 View Post
 

I ended up ordering these isolation/dampening products as they are relatively cheap and have received praise from many people. Including stereophile and 6moons.

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

Congrats Zach...

 

All the items that you have purchased had been highly praised, please bear in mind they need weight for the best effect! 

post #2285 of 3704
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmichels View Post
 

Boy, those PHILCO 1S4 are titling !!  :eek:   Just gently touching any part of the Amp, and here they go !!  never heard this before with other tubes....

 

GermanGuy: IS it specific to the PHILCO or does it mean that my set of tubes PHILCO is in bad shape ? :confused:

 

maybe the philcos are somewhat sensitive in that area, but that has nothing to do with beeing in bad shape i think.

 

also this effect is correlated to the sensitivity of your headphone, for example much louder to hear with my t5p or the ue tf10 than with my grados.

 

edit:

 

just tested this with my akg k3003. the philcos indeed are very sensitive!


Edited by GermanGuy - 9/20/13 at 11:24am
post #2286 of 3704
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkrs01 View Post
 

I lay the TU-05 flat and the feet were just bought from a local accessories shop. I did not go for cones but blocks, supposedly it is made by a Canadian company. 

 

The only other aspect that I would like to eliminate from the TU-05 is the ringing from the case, and may buy a Shakti Stone to sit on the case adding more weight on the case and the magic properties of the stone won't go amiss. 

 

Sorry about picture quality

 

 

did you test the opposite side? seeing the pictures you and ianmedium have posted, you both place the tu-05 side panel side with the switches on top.

 

i did just the opposite, placing the side with the switches on the bottom side because the side with the switches is also the side where the output transformers and other components are mounted, assuming this side is where most of the resonances can be absorbed!

 

would be very interested in your results doing the same.


Edited by GermanGuy - 9/20/13 at 11:21am
post #2287 of 3704
Gavin. I completely undersand with your situation. To be honest I will go the purchase route eventually but seeing as I am aiming to move back to Europe soon I did not want to lug around a bunch of isolation platforms so went the DIY route.

I know my love of Nagra is pretty well known and in part my solution has come from their isolation platform. I am going to refine mine a little more and get two small sheets of aluminum and make an iso-elastic sandwich of them a bit like the Nagra solution.

I don't think their platforms are small and I think for this application they would not work as you bring up a very important point, that of weight!

What I have tried to do is make something similar to what I have seen but with materials that will work in the same way with less weight on them.

Zachchen, I will be really interested in your thoughts on the isolation equipment you have purchased, hopefully they will work well with the amp.

Andy(smial) has used Sorbothane in the past. Andy, I would love to know what your thoughts on using it were with the amp. Also, have you received your isolation devices yet and if so how are they working out?

I actually believe that isolation is, in many ways, more important a subject with this amp than tube rolling if my experiences are anything to go by!

Bmichels, when you say tilting do you mean they move about? I would imagine they would as they have one less pin to anchor them in with if those are the ones you cut the pin off which I think they are.
post #2288 of 3704

as i understood bmichels refers to the you call it ting noise as he used the word 'titling' before in this context. if so, mine are also very sensitive to produce this ting noise. or i missunderstood something as the translation of tilting makes no sense other than you mentioned.


Edited by GermanGuy - 9/20/13 at 11:54am
post #2289 of 3704

double post deleted!


Edited by GermanGuy - 9/20/13 at 11:45am
post #2290 of 3704
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanGuy View Post

as i understood bmichels refers to the you call it ting noise as he used the word 'titling' before in this context. if so, mine are also very sensitive to produce this ting noise, but as i have a switch to switch pin 1 power on/off, this seems not related to a cutted pin 1. or i missunderstood something as the translation of tilting makes no sense other than you mentioned.

Ahh, I see what you mean GG, he might mean tinging noise. If that is the case it is not a bad tube as I explained before, just some are more sensitive that others. Its the rustling or screeching noises that you have to worry about.

The rustling may just be dirty pins but it also could mean the tube is on its last legs. If the rustling does not go away with pin cleaning then you might as well junk the tube, I had that with my Telefunkens!
post #2291 of 3704
thank you to bring into my mind it could be improved by cleaning the pins, will just do this! it seems nobody has used the cleaning kits, would be so happy to get a feedback.

btw, found very cheap and fine sand, it's just in germany called 'bird cage' sand you can buy everywhere for filling the bottom of bird cages.
Edited by GermanGuy - 9/20/13 at 12:03pm
post #2292 of 3704
GG, I am at the moment sourcing some garnet powder in a small enough quantity as I remember a jeweller friend used to use that to polish precious metal to great effect. Once I do I will let you know how the kit works!
post #2293 of 3704
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanGuy View Post
 

as i understood bmichels refers to the you call it ting noise as he used the word 'titling' before in this context. if so, mine are also very sensitive to produce this ting noise. or i missunderstood something as the translation of tilting makes no sense other than you mentioned.

 

YES, I mean " ting noise " and with the PHILCO, it is amazing how they are sensitive to this. They almost start to ting when ... I look at them :-)

post #2294 of 3704

Very impressive solution Ian, and surely NOT Amateur at all !! I am tempted to use it also.   I may just try to replace may be your by some "nicer" ceramic cone to try.

 

buy, is the the granite support base really necessary ?  it is indeed the most heavy and inconvenient part for building/moving around id needed !   Have you tested your solution without it, just the big  3/4" slab of marine ply as a base ?  

 

Also van you post a profile picture  of the solution that show the layers under the 3/4" slab of marine ply  ( Granit - blocs of Blu-Tac)

 

Finaly, Spkrs01 mention a " Shakti Stone " !  what is it ?  is it like the granite you are using or some more exotic/hard to find stone ? 

post #2295 of 3704
You know the interesting thing is the tubes that ting the most I find are the tubes I like the most! If you can get some Blu-Tac and construct something like I have I think you will be pleasantly surprised how much the tinging is reduced and how much the sound quality goes up!

Its like the experiments with did with tube dampers but with the benefit of retaining the life and energy which I found tube dampers took away!
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