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Analog Squared Paper Discussion and Appreciation Thread. - Page 78

post #1156 of 3498
bmichels,

This thread has succumbed to an element of tube rolling mania. I don't mean this in a derogatory sense at all. But it seems that every last tube purchase when combined with the XYZ of thermionic nirvana imparts an almost mystical ambiance to the sound quality of this amplifier. Far enough if your hearing is acute enough to discern such infinitesimally small 'differences'. But having rolled a fair number of tubes, to my mind these 'differences' aren't worth stressing about. By all means change the stock tubes after thoroughly auditioning them, but please don't think that the rarefied Lorenz (or some other virtually unobtainable tube) will somehow transmogrify your amplifier into an aural ambrosia bestowing device that will transform your listening experience, as the tubes impart a 5-10% sonically different flavour at most. So enjoy what you've got and roll the tubes at your peril! ;-)

Cheers,
Andy.
Edited by smial1966 - 7/20/13 at 2:43pm
post #1157 of 3498

here is a list with some of my posts, maybe it's helpful  to have an index to my impressions of the different tube combos and makes it easier to find older topics / posts:

 

tube cleaning kit:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/630#post_9573905

 

tube pictures:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/660#post_9579792

 

interconnect jacks and cables:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/690#post_9580479

 

my diy interconnects:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/690#post_9581240

 

gold plating tool:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/690#post_9581240

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/735#post_9586055

 

tube pins gold plating:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/750#post_9587261

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/765#post_9590026

 

my reference tracks /cd's to listen to the tu-05:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/780#post_9591686

 

standard tube rating form:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/795#post_9593228

 

cradle construction:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/810#post_9598458

 

tu-05 first impressions:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/855#post_9609995

 

tu-05 with lorenz - philips combo:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/870#post_9610188

 

my tu-05 setup with player and headphone:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/870#post_9610329

 

tu-05 power supply:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/870#post_9610573

 

tube rolling:

 

valvo and lorenz tube combos:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/885#post_9610868

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/900#post_9612010

 

telefunken:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/900#post_9612467

 

siemens tubes and short summary:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/900#post_9612624

 

valvo red label:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/915#post_9613134

 

listening to different interconnects:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/930#post_9614421

 

tube rolling: ultron tubes:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/945#post_9614695

 

tube pictures by manufacturer:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/945#post_9614708

 

protective carrying pocket for tu-05:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/960#post_9615850

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/975#post_9617363

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/990#post_9618486

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/1065#post_9627641

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/1140#post_9633189

 

tube rolling: valvo red label - tung-sol ken rad combo:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/1020

 

summary and valvo red label - lorenz combo:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/1050#post_9624911

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/1080#post_9629496

 

basic explanation of amp function and construction:

www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/1095#post_9630986

 

tube rolling: telefunken df904:

www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-paper-2-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/1140#post_9632746


Edited by GermanGuy - 7/20/13 at 11:15pm
post #1158 of 3498
Quote:
Originally Posted by smial1966 View Post

bmichels,

This thread has succumbed to an element of tube rolling mania. I don't mean this in a derogatory sense at all. But it seems that every last tube purchase when combined with the XYZ of thermionic nirvana imparts an almost mystical ambiance to the sound quality of this amplifier. Far enough if your hearing is acute enough to discern such infinitesimally small 'differences'. But having rolled a fair number of tubes, to my mind these 'differences' aren't worth stressing about. By all means change the stock tubes after thoroughly auditioning them, but please don't think that the rarefied Lorenz (or some other virtually unobtainable tube) will somehow transmogrify your amplifier into an aural ambrosia bestowing device that will transform your listening experience, as the tubes impart a 5-10% sonically different flavour at most. So enjoy what you've got and roll the tubes at your peril! ;-)

Cheers,
Andy.

 

..... will wissen, was die Welt, im Innersten zusammen hält ...

 

 

Goethe, Faust I

 

edit:

 

i partly disagree. i agree that we are searching for the very best in an area that is already very small for improvement, but i exactly know what i am searching for.

 

the problem going this way is that if you want to change the sound, you can test new combinations or buy some new tubes. for example the telefunken df904 mil spec - philips dl92 combo is near to perfection for my taste, but i slightly miss a better localisation and a more pinpoint imaging.

 

so what to do?

 

i can buy earl grey tee or apples or a zino santos cigar, but not a tube with just the ability to do that with my existing tube set, i have to test it.

 

i know this from my latest diy grado style headphone. i spent nearly 2 month only in fine tuning the sound, but ..., there was this moment when my ears told me, that everything is perfect, 100% match with what i wanted, and from this moment on i stopped modifying the headphone, it is unchanged and will stay unchanged.

 

i am sure that the same will happen with the tubes. when i have found exactly the sound desired, tube rolling stops immediatly.

 

p.s. nice to see you back here!


Edited by GermanGuy - 7/20/13 at 11:06pm
post #1159 of 3498
I would agree with Andy and have said many times before that though the different tubes make a difference it is at the most 10% . Likewise do not get caught up on the interconnect, at best 10% again. There may be the chance the amp is just not your sonic cup of tea!
post #1160 of 3498
I have an admission as well. I have been selfish!

I saw GG's comments about the 1U4 Telefunkens and knowing he and I have similar tastes in how music is delivered I went on the hunt and found a pair of NOS/NIB with the diamond bases and great printing on the glass up for auction, ending this afternoon. Starting bid was $10 for the pair so I placed a bid and no one else bid so I got them for a steal! I am very much looking forward to hearing what they sound like!


Once again as well. I have a lot of fun with this tube rolling and that is what it is, fun! If you never rolled tubes, kept the stock ones you would be hearing a lovely sound and you could enjoy the amp for years to come and be very satisfied with that sound.. If it is a sound you like!

Like the FAD PF's however you may not like the sound this amp makes and that is fine, that is why there are so many amps out there, to cater to different tastes.

I hope I have conveyed this when sharing my thoughts of this amp and various tube combinations. The variations do make a difference to me and the descriptions I feel valid and accurate and have always been at pains to make it clear that these differences are the sprinkles on the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

I have never wanted to convey that these changes are huge and hopefully reading my posts that will have come across as so. If it has not come across that way I apologize. It was never my intention to deceive or to colour in an incorrect manner my thoughts and lead others to making the wrong decisions.

I have no financial interest in this amp other than owning one and nothing personal to gain by amps being sold other than hopefully other folks enjoying music more due to enjoying their amp and what it brings sonically to the table.

I really want make that clear as for so long it has been in the main my thoughts on this thread as others who own the amp have not wanted to post which is fine, no one has to post their thoughts, quite right that.

So I have felt a bit of pressure of late as folks have ordered the amp and whilst I am not arrogant enough to think my word is gospel I do realize that some folks will have based part of their decision to purchase on thoughts I have conveyed and that is why I have hopefully been clear on my thoughts.

It has been gratifying and somewhat of a relief to find other folks hearing what I have heard and seeing the capabilities of this amp and conveying those thoughts as it supports my endeavours and I am grateful in particular to Anak Chan, woodcans and German Guy for that and for their kindness in acknowledging that what I heard and then gone on to describe is fairly accurate to what owners can expect to hear.


I truly love the fact that this amp encourages passion in finding how to eke the very best out of it, for me that is a true measure of how good a design is.

And whilst I do feel tube rolling is a small part it is an important part I feel and I am glad I have now over 47 tubes and have found that out. Considering as well that with this amp tube rolling is pretty cheap there is not a huge amount to lose in trying it out. Heck, all my tubes together come to less than one desirable tube for a normal amp!

Lastly, I want to thank folks for being so active of late on this thread. I love that it has some life now and that people are so willing to experiment and share their thoughts. I do in particular single out German Guy for praise. You sir have brought such life to this thread and I so appreciate your knowledge, your willingness to experiment to get the last ounce of quality out of this amp and your generosity of spirit, long may your contributions flow and long may everyone else lucky enough to own this amp or to have ordered one continue to share their thoughts good and bad about this amp and the new 06 to come.
post #1161 of 3498
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmichels View Post

Well folks, I started to move on the long tube testing road...

I have already tested 2 configurations:

- Combination 1 : Sylvania 3S4 + Tungsram 1T4T 

- Combination 2: Mullard 3S4 +  Tungsram 1T4T

I must say that so far I am not super convinced by those 2 options for the following reasons: May be it is more detailled than with the stock tubes, BUT... I have a feeling that I have less BASS and less gain than with the stock tubes  ( At least for the gain I am certain: I listen at 12 O'clock with the stock tubes and at 3 O'clock with those 2 combinations !).  Does it make sense to you or... am I dreaming ??

Anyway, I will test next :

Combination 3 : 
Mullard 3S4  + 
Siemens  DF91




And..... Since I have also some Siemens DL92, I can do a lot of other combinations 
wink_face.gif
 But, what combinations are worth testing ? Indeed, with ( including the stock tubes)  4 different 3S4 tubes and 3  Voltage gain tubes, this makes... 12 combinations possibles 
confused_face(1).gif
,...so a little direction will be welcome :-)



So.... what combinaison should I test next ?   


PS:  I am impress by German Guy comment's  of his new combination: philips dl 92 (3S4) + telefunken df904 mil spec  (1U4).  --> Where to find them, with the garantee to have the exact same tubes ?


thanks for your comments

Please remember as well. You need at least 10 hours to start to really hear any differences in tubes, plus your amp needs to burn in a bit. I would just stick with one set at the moment and let the amp get some hours on it, that is what I did initially then I started trying other combinations of tubes.

As I have said on many occasions, what sounds great to my ears may not sound that way to someone else's. But if you feel like having fun with these tubes then eventually (if that is the sonic signature of the amp is to your liking, it may not be) you will find a sweet spot or, as myself and GG have found, several sweet spots.

I really like the way woodcans is doing things, very similar to the way I started. I changed tubes then had them in for a while to get used to the sound. By the looks of things he has struck gold first time round, it took me a few goes, each time there was an incremental improvement for me.

Again though, we all hear things differently and it may end up that the way this amp sounds is not how you like to listen to music and that is fine. I am pretty sure it would not be hard to sell the amp and try something else. This is what I did until I got to this amp which ticks all my boxes!

good luck with it all though and see what you feel like after you have a few hours on it. Forget rolling tubes or changing cables for now, just get used to listening to music through the amp for if after a number of hours it does not work for you no amount of tube rolling or cable swapping will alter the fundamental things about this amp.

Hope that helps.
post #1162 of 3498

ianmedium - (hope i use the right english words for this) - regarding your 'selfish' buy of the telefunken tubes - i think, it's not selfish but the normal wish to find the best tube set for your taste (wish you better luck this time buying telefunken tubes smile.gif).

 

i am sure that everybody here spending so much time and money for amp, tubes, yes - music) has the same direction and goal in mind  - the best musical reproduction and listening experience and how to get it. this strategy or idea or wish is behind all actions - but obvious and not written.

 

thank you very much for especially mention GermanGuy who brings life to this group, i feel really honored. 

 

in my view the life and activity here is based not only  on my posts  (nevertheless i try my best), but much more important on all the posts together, and the great mixture of participants and the free and open mind of all making it possible in this thread to ask really every question and posting even the most weird idea without any problem.

 

it would be really boring if this thread were only filled with fighting experts or nonstop dreaming music lovers.

 

a lot of my ideas and posts are based on good questions or problems one has, so the questions and problems are really a kick starter to bring life to the group again and again.

 

the same here for different opinions.

 

(edited the last part for better understanding what i want to express):

 

regarding your post with your reasons why you took and take part here and your thoughts why you do this or that (and you kept this thread alive long before most of us joined), 

 

i am sure that i can speak for the whole group that nobody here at any time ever had a wrong opinion or feeling or second thoughts about other reasons (for example a commercial one)  for your participation here!

 

for me you are an important part and the soul (and the main reason this thread exists up to now) and a valuable member of this thread promoting this amp because you love it, love music and want to share your experience and give other people the chance to have the same experience, and it is always a pleasure  and very helpfull to read your posts as we all share the same vision!


Edited by GermanGuy - 7/21/13 at 4:29am
post #1163 of 3498

You are right.... I will spend more time on each tube, letting my hear get used to each combination few hours before I change the tubes.

 

thanks

post #1164 of 3498
I am trying to identify which tubes were shipped With my unit.

I asked Shikada but hé could not help : " I am sorry. I do not remember the brand...I got a different brand each time from the supplier."

So... I try to read what is printed on thé tubes:

- For the 1U4/1T4 it is easy Since I can read: RCA 64ex4
- But for the 3S4, the printing is gone. all I can read is R A ? (H?) (E?) O N.

-> Is it RADHEON or something like this ?

-> do you know this combinaison ?

Thanks.
post #1165 of 3498
Raytheon?!
post #1166 of 3498

Yes, RAYTHEON is a possibility.   Is it a good tube ?  

 

In fact I like quite well this combination  RAYTHEON 3S4 + RCA 1U4: I find it having more bass and more gain than the new one tested !!


Edited by bmichels - 7/21/13 at 6:48am
post #1167 of 3498
GG, thank you for your kindness, it is much appreciated.
michels.

You have a lovely stock combination there. When I got my amp the stock tubes were Tung-sols and Sylvania's, both non mil-spec.

What you may have with the Raytheons are Japanese made ones if they are after 1960 I think. I believe they were made by Matshu****a and from the little I know are highly regarded. The RCA's are lovely tubes as well. The nature of NOS of course is that Shikada San will use what he can get hold of as stocks run out but the stock tubes now I feel are much nicer quality.

One important thing I have learned though is not to put everything in a name, there are exceptions but when these tubes were made they could have been made by any number of companies and then had other companies labels put on them due to country quota's, sharing of work, especially in military use and so on.

There are some exceptions, Siemens it seems did very little of that, Telefunken also (though of course I got the only Tele's not made by them but the new ones coming are!)
post #1168 of 3498
Also, using a 1U4 you will have more gain, the 1T4's require more steps on the volume pot to achieve the same level as the 1U4.
post #1169 of 3498

I have had more listening time this weekend. Driven by my Tera, this amp puts out wonderfully detailed sound. It truly has taken my setup to the next level. A level where I end up listening to the music and get lost in it. There is an addictive quality to the sound. Very lifelike and as Ian mentioned, intoxicating. I won't go into too much gushing, but Ian, I am for one very glad you have sung its praises which led me to purchase. As for tubes, I remain extremely happy with the Sylvania Siemens combo. So happy, in fact, I have had little motivation thus far to tube roll, as I just keep playing song after song. 

post #1170 of 3498

Well, apparently I brought this thread to a grinding halt. Despite the fact I wasn't motivated to tube roll, I had some unexpected free time this afternoon.

 

Which led to giving me a chance to put in a pair of mil-spec Ken Rad tubes in the 3s4 slots:

 

 

 

 

 

I must say, the combo of my TP, the 8 strand IC from BTG, the amp (& tubes of course), plus the Ocharaku Kaedes, has left me in a state of sonic bliss.

 

 

 

 

I only have a couple of hours on the Ken Rads, but so far I would classify them (as paired with the Sylvanias) as only very slightly more detailed and only very slightly less euphonic than the Siemens. And I was listening to music when this shot was taken. Back to it...


Edited by woodcans - 7/21/13 at 5:35pm
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