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post #376 of 1646

I don't think I saw anyone mention this, but as a business model this seems a little weird.

 

It does not appear that Pono wants to make their money selling players - they want to create a music ecosystem. So they're entering a niche market as a competitor. They don't expect everyone to buy their player....but the wildly-popular iOS devices won't play FLAC.

 

So let's say this becomes popular, even though the product people would actually buy looks (to me) ridiculous compared to a mass-market player like an iPod Touch, iPhone, or Galaxy S4.

 

Apple might respond to the demand by offering an update to iTunes Plus, now offering ALAC versions of existing library. I can't imagine that this would be hard, or that they don't already have this in the works. If they offered an "iTunes Match Pro" for $100/yr that would upgrade my tracks, I'd buy in. It would be vastly more convenient for the mass market (those using iTunes instead of Foobar, etc), and could probably kill Pono.

 

This would probably be a good thing for consumers, though - mass-market lossless audio - just bad for Pono.

post #377 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by inertianinja View Post
 

I don't think I saw anyone mention this, but as a business model this seems a little weird.

 

It does not appear that Pono wants to make their money selling players - they want to create a music ecosystem. So they're entering a niche market as a competitor. They don't expect everyone to buy their player....but the wildly-popular iOS devices won't play FLAC.

 

So let's say this becomes popular, even though the product people would actually buy looks (to me) ridiculous compared to a mass-market player like an iPod Touch, iPhone, or Galaxy S4.

 

Apple might respond to the demand by offering an update to iTunes Plus, now offering ALAC versions of existing library. I can't imagine that this would be hard, or that they don't already have this in the works. If they offered an "iTunes Match Pro" for $100/yr that would upgrade my tracks, I'd buy in. It would be vastly more convenient for the mass market (those using iTunes instead of Foobar, etc), and could probably kill Pono.

 

This would probably be a good thing for consumers, though - mass-market lossless audio - just bad for Pono.

 

It almost seems to me that the developers of Pono has not considered something as simple as a SWOT analysis. Their plans on expanding Ponomusic is a complete mystery, and seems very much like an afterthought.

 

We don't even know why they need the money. We're not talking about young entrepreneurs dipping their toes into business here: Monster Beats headphones weren't a kickstarter.

post #378 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaac View Post
 

Regarding watermarks, I think I saw in one of the promotional videos for this that there's a little light to show when a genuine Pono track was being played.  I'd assumed it was just any track that was 24/96 or maybe just 24/192.

 

As its flac they could presumably only check for actual Pono tracks (without using tags) by adding a watermark signal to the wav from which the flac is made (in the frequencies outside of human hearing)?  The player could spot this and turn the light on.

At the same time they could watermark the flac with a unique number for each sale.  If it doesn't spoil the sound then I guess its not the end of the world.

 

Or put the info into the metadata. iTunes also has some cryptic metadata in MP4 files (but I don't know if it contains personalized information).

 

Let's see what other artists they come up with for the limited Pono Player series. I might just preorder one...

post #379 of 1646

So this Pono dap, it has headphone and line out if I am not mistaking, not digital out right?

 

Sorry I couldn't read the all thread yet, so my question might have been answered already.

 

Metallica version can be nice for me honestly. Foo Fighters is all gone, which is sad.

 

The page says there will be more limited edition versions, maybe I should wait and see if something I really love shows up.

post #380 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by szeiger View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaac View Post

 
Regarding watermarks, I think I saw in one of the promotional videos for this that there's a little light to show when a genuine Pono track was being played.  I'd assumed it was just any track that was 24/96 or maybe just 24/192.

As its flac they could presumably only check for actual Pono tracks (without using tags) by adding a watermark signal to the wav from which the flac is made (in the frequencies outside of human hearing)?  The player could spot this and turn the light on.
At the same time they could watermark the flac with a unique number for each sale.  If it doesn't spoil the sound then I guess its not the end of the world.

Or put the info into the metadata. iTunes also has some cryptic metadata in MP4 files (but I don't know if it contains personalized information).
Mastered for iTunes stuff can actually sound quite good. That's another problem I have with the campaign. The Mastered for iTunes stuff still undergoes lossy compression, yet they sound nearly as dynamic as so-called HD masters. Lossy vs lossless differences become pretty much indistinguishable from one another if a good lossy compression, such as 256 kbps AAC in the iTunes Store, is used. Again, the master matters, not HD, not good-quality lossy compression.
http://www.apple.com/itunes/mastered-for-itunes/
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58099
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/39486




Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberOzL View Post

So this Pono dap, it has headphone and line out if I am not mistaking, not digital out right?

Sorry I couldn't read the all thread yet, so my question might have been answered already.
Yes, it has headphone out and line out connections. They should really just say line out instead of "a stereo mini-plug analog output specifically designed for listening on your home audio system." -_-
post #381 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Mastered for iTunes stuff can actually sound quite good. That's another problem I have with the campaign. The Mastered for iTunes stuff still undergoes lossy compression, yet they sound nearly as dynamic as so-called HD masters

You seem to be confusing digital data compression with dynamic signal compression. They're two different things.

se
post #382 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Mastered for iTunes stuff can actually sound quite good. That's another problem I have with the campaign. The Mastered for iTunes stuff still undergoes lossy compression, yet they sound nearly as dynamic as so-called HD masters

You seem to be confusing digital data compression with dynamic signal compression. They're two different things.

se
I know what the differences are. Neil seems to correlate dynamic range with lossless formats, suggesting that lossy data compression is the problem. I'm saying that's not the problem as some albums on iTunes have decent dynamic range, yet they still undergo lossy data compression.
post #383 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Neil seems to correlate dynamic range with lossless formats, suggesting that lossy data compression is the problem.

He also says "MP3's are less than 5 percent of the sound," which is just industrial strength stupid so I guess it's not terribly surprising that he would confuse data compression with dynamic signal compression.

Quote:
I'm saying that's not the problem as some albums on iTunes have decent dynamic range, yet they still undergo lossy data compression.

Gotcha. Sorry for the confusion.

se
post #384 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

He also says "MP3's are less than 5 percent of the sound," which is just industrial strength stupid so I guess it's not terribly surprising that he would confuse data compression with dynamic signal compression.
 

 

I am glad that I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

post #385 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobLee89 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

He also says "MP3's are less than 5 percent of the sound," which is just industrial strength stupid so I guess it's not terribly surprising that he would confuse data compression with dynamic signal compression.

 

I am glad that I wasn't the only one who noticed that.
I guess I missed that, hahaha.

Anyway, I was really considering getting Pharrell William's "G I R L" album from HD Tracks since there was a 10% off coupon...I'm kind of glad I didn't. The Mastered for iTunes version has better dynamic range ratings.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58045
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58691

Actually, I may even consider buying more albums from iTunes that are Mastered for iTunes as there seems to be a trend that the iTunes releases have more dynamic range than the ones offered from HD music websites.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/17548
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/11675



I wonder what kind of music the PonoMusic store will offer.
post #386 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post


I guess I missed that, hahaha.

Anyway, I was really considering getting Pharrell William's "G I R L" album from HD Tracks since there was a 10% off coupon...I'm kind of glad I didn't. The Mastered for iTunes version has better dynamic range ratings.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58045
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58691

Actually, I may even consider buying more albums from iTunes that are Mastered for iTunes as there seems to be a trend that the iTunes releases have more dynamic range than the ones offered from HD music websites.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/17548
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/11675



I wonder what kind of music the PonoMusic store will offer.

 

I don't think my ears could really differentiate this huge difference in dynamic range, I mean 6 vs.7..and I don't really think it really proves anything unless I see some testing involving a larger group of randomly picked people but that's another story that doesn't quite belong here.. :-)

post #387 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupiterknight View Post

I don't think my ears could really differentiate this huge difference in dynamic range, I mean 6 vs.7..and I don't really think it really proves anything unless I see some testing involving a larger group of randomly picked people but that's another story that doesn't quite belong here.. :-)
True. Therefore, don't buy the HD stuff and buy the lossy stuff from iTunes, which is the exact opposite thing the PonoMusic campaign is aiming for. XD

"G I R L" is $10.99 USD in the iTunes Store, and whoops it's unavailable in the HD Tracks store.
http://www.hdtracks.com/g-i-r-l

"Nevermind" is $9.99 USD in the iTunes Store, $17.98 (nearly twice the price) in the HD Tracks store.



As it was brought up somewhere, who is going pay the extra bucks for the music in the PonoMusic store when some of the lossless HD music doesn't really provide many benefits over the lossy non-HD music that people already buy from the iTunes Store to use with all of their iDevices?
post #388 of 1646
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobLee89 View Post

I am glad that I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

biggrin.gif

se
post #389 of 1646

I dont think I will buy the pono after all , since most of my music is not exactly mainstream or even available for HD mastering

post #390 of 1646
I have read many negative comments here and there, also in press, but honestly i do not understand why. (Maybe "others" afraid of competetion?) Price is very competitive for onboard 64gb flash storage. Most importantly, if they manage to implament flawless UI and acceptable sound, it will be quite success.
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