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Yamaha PRO Headphones. - Page 21

post #301 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habu View Post


Actually Pro 500 might have different drivers than Pro 400. From Yamaha site:

 

Pro 500:

Ultra-premium drivers, mobile-optimized for maximum efficiency and performance

 

Pro 400:

Premium, mobile-optimized drivers for maximum efficiency and performance

 

I get really scared when the way a company describes the their driver differences is "ultra-premium" vs "premium." Objectively/critically that means nothing.

 

If you look at the tech specs of the driver listed, they look identical to me.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/headphones/pro-500/?mode=model

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/headphones/pro-400/?mode=model

 

If there is a difference in sound quality/signature, I really think it would be due to the aluminium earcups. I just personally think some companies will simply release one version of their headphones with aluminium earcups already there, while other companies will release two versions of the same headphones and charge $100 for aluminium earcups. I personally would not be comfortable buying from the later company.

 

It isn't like the $300 Pro400 is a budget version since $300+ is already considered pretty premium for closed, portable headphones. Extremely highly-rated closed portable headphones such as the Ultrasone Pro 900, V-Moda M100, AKG K550/K551, Sony MDR-1R, Sennheiser Momentum/Amperior are all within the $300 range. In fact, at $300+ is the starting price of people looking to get into the entry-level true audiophile type set-ups that require amps such as the HE-400, AKG K701/Q701, Sennheiser HD600/HD650, and Beyer DT880, right? The next step from those headphones would be the $1,000+ set-ups.

 

Honestly, if you are happy with the Pro 500's sound quality & styling, that is great. I was never trying to pick a fight. I just recently gotten interested in headphones so I did a lot of research and comparisons. From what I've learned, I would slot the Pro 500 in the $300 range and still think it is a bit pricey.

 

The Pro 500 may be great sounding headphones... but if you think that the Pro 500 is a good value for your money, I personally disagree.

 

Edit: There's no reason to get offended or start calling me names. This is simply an opinion with supporting evidence. If you disagree, then just make your case. At the end of the day, the discussion will only benefit everyone reading this thread, and they can form their own opinions.


Edited by money4me247 - 3/5/13 at 12:59am
post #302 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyjoegunrack View Post

It is not that people are offended, it is that people don't want to wade through completely unqualified opinions when they are trying to make a choice. You haven't got the foggiest idea about these headphones and you are making unqualified opinions based on zero real input, except what you think about these from a picture you saw. The people who actually own these things have contradicted you, tried to tell you you were off the mark, but you keep this up like what you are saying matters. You haven't even seen these things in person, haven't listened to them, and you think you should give your uninformed "critical observations." You are not helping, and I suspect you know it.

 

THIS x10, that's the reason I find money4me's posts annoying / unfair / unqualified.

 

Also regarding the specs being the same on PRO400 vs PRO500, that doesn't stop Yamaha tuning the drivers themselves so even if they would be using same driver (which doesn't necessarily have to be the case even) the frequency response tuning is most likely made different on purpose, typically that's what a lot of companies do anyway.

post #303 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post

This is very helpful. A lot of people seem to prefer the Pro 500 to the M100. I think this is probably because the M100 has a more dramatic v-shape than the Pro 500 so that the mids are more recessed on the M100. The bass of the M100 is definitely emphasized, so if the Pro 500 is similar, I would imagine bass-emphasis. The treble extension of the Pro 500 may cause ear fatigue  for certain users or can be very delightful for others. That is something that causes the mixed feedback on Ultrasone, the trebles are too sharp.

 

So it's basically reviews like this that makes me think that the Pro 500 should be priced at a lower price point. There is nothing that makes the Pro 500 $100 more unless you personally prefer that sound signature. What other headphones do you have to compare against the Pro 500?


While it is admirable and prudent to research headphones on Head-fi before buying, there comes a point when you have asked the same question ten different ways on ten different forums where it is time to make a decision and listen to  headphones for yourself since we are all providing subjective opinions anyway and you may totally disagree.  I am at a loss as to how you continue to make judgements and review headphones you haven't heard based on the perception of others.  To add insult to injury, your second-hand interpretation isn't even accurate in most cases.

 

There is no way around listening to a headphone to know how it sounds to you.

post #304 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post

 

THIS x10, that's the reason I find money4me's posts annoying / unfair / unqualified.

 

Also regarding the specs being the same on PRO400 vs PRO500, that doesn't stop Yamaha tuning the drivers themselves so even if they would be using same driver (which doesn't necessarily have to be the case even) the frequency response tuning is most likely made different on purpose, typically that's what a lot of companies do anyway.

how is it that my opinions based on reading tons of reviews of exactly what you Head-fi-ers said about each headphones less qualified than your own personal opinion that is obviously biased towards a particular sound signature??

 

all the judgemental and dissy-pissy posts are exactly why audiophile/headphone enthusiasts is sucha damn small niche. Don't you find it strange that almost everyone in the world loves music and good sound, but so few people know about actual high-quality headphones? It's because newcomers to the scene get ripped to shreds when their opinion does not conform with yours.

 

So the premise is that headphones have a different sound signature and different people like different sound signatures. On top of that, you guys don't even agree on the sound signatures for the same headphones. Therefore, the only way to really sort through this giant mess is to compile as many opinions as there is and see what the majority of people think. Even if I was to listen to something and tell you want I heard, if YOU don't agree with my assessment, all of a sudden there is all this name-calling and hating. It's ridiculous.

 

Does it not occur to you guys that headphone companies are not run by audiophiles... they are run by businessmen that have no problem overcharging for headphones? Just because they added "ultra-premium" to the name does not mean they spent any extra time tuning the sound. If you are so confident on the sonic upgrades, I challenge you to do a blind test of the Pro 500 & Pro 400 and see how many times you can guess which ones you are listening to. On one hand, you guys hate on the Beats, Street, Bose, and Soul for being over-priced for their sound quality, but then on the flip-side, rain praises down Yamaha Pro 500 which is $100 more than all of the other headphones in its class. It seems really hypocritical and does not make sense to me. 

 

The fact that you guys cannot just simply answer the simple question: what are the characteristics described with audiophile terms that are exhibited in the Pro 500 that are simply not present in its competitors that can be used to justify it's higher price tag... just makes it more difficult for newcomers with limited budget and ability to test every single pair of headphones out there to understand the sonic differences between headphones.

 

Read a review of the M100 and a review of the Pro 500 and they legitimately say basically the exact same thing. Then there is the comparison between the two, and somehow, the Pro 500 comes up on top. Then, in another comparison, the M100 comes out on top. That makes me think that it really just seems like personal preference to me. If you thought the Pro 500 is better, whenever you see a comparison that puts the M100 higher, "omg you're retarded. X headphones are so XYZ. my pair of Y headphones are so much better."

 
There are so many people jumping on the flavor of the week hype train and just promoting their own personal favorite choice, but very little actual comparison and objective analysis on these forums. People get so easily offended when your opinion does not conform with theirs jump to insulting and acting elitist. Don't you guys realize that the reason that someone hates one pair of headphones is the same reason someone else likes that pair? but when this situation happens, it turns into oh, "my personal preference of sound signature is obviously more superior to yours"
 
So you are saying unless you have heard the headphones you are talking about, you are not allowed to have an opinion on the value of the headphones after you read reviews on their sound signature/based on what is the general consensus of how they sound?
 
Man, it really just sounds like you guys are upset that I implied that you are wasting money on the Pro 500. That is the exact same reaction that Beats users get when you guys tell them that they are wasting money. Do you really think that the Yamaha Pro 500 cost more to make compared to the Ultrasone Pro 900, Sony MDR-1R, or even the Beats? Most headphones are made of plastic and metal. Most headphone companies spend time & money tuning their drivers. The price they charge is simply the maximum amount they think they can get away with.
post #305 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster75 View Post


While it is admirable and prudent to research headphones on Head-fi before buying, there comes a point when you have asked the same question ten different ways on ten different forums where it is time to make a decision and listen to  headphones for yourself since we are all providing subjective opinions anyway and you may totally disagree.  I am at a loss as to how you continue to make judgements and review headphones you haven't heard based on the perception of others.  To add insult to injury, your second-hand interpretation isn't even accurate in most cases.

 

There is no way around listening to a headphone to know how it sounds to you.

My second hand interpretation does not conform with your opinion, but they are legitimately the complied opinions/reviews of notable Head-Fi-ers.

 

I did not review the Yamaha Pro 500. I simply said that they are not worth the extra $100 based on the fact that competitors offer the same high-end products at a lower price point. If you want to throw away your money for whatever sonic attributes that "Yamaha" sound sig has over its competitors, that is fine. However, for that class of closed, portable headphones, $400 is really out of sync with its competitors. This is an opinion of the price, not a review of its sound. All the sound information I got was legit copy-pasted from other people's reviews.

 

Damn, you guys get so insulted when someone tells you that the headphones you have don't seem to be worth the price, but you guys love to preach to other people that their headphones is not worth the price and omg, these headphones I personally like are obviously superior.


Edited by money4me247 - 3/5/13 at 2:19am
post #306 of 477

@money4me247-  I think you are missing the point, but here is some constructive feedback:  Go to Best Buy with your music player, listen to every headphone in the store and decide which you like, then come back and describe your desired sound based on what you HEARD.  If you can't hear the difference between a $100 headphone and a $400 headphone, then by all means, save your money and go with the $100 headphone. No one is encouraging anyone to spend more money, but sometimes (not always) finding the best sound costs more.
 

post #307 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster75 View Post

@money4me247-  I think you are missing the point, but here is some constructive feedback:  Go to Best Buy with your music player, listen to every headphone in the store and decide which you like, then come back and describe your desired sound based on what you HEARD.  If you can't hear the difference between a $100 headphone and a $400 headphone, then by all means, save your money and go with the $100 headphone. No one is encouraging anyone to spend more money, but sometimes (not always) finding the best sound costs more.
 

Lol... I did do that and I did hear the subtle differences. Really didn't feel like one sound was superior to another. I think the problem with audiophile mentality is that you think that there is a "best sound," and the way to reach a "best sound" is to throw more money at it. Then it turns out that the "best sound" is simply the sound signature that you personally prefer. Turns out the more expensive sound isn't necessarily better, just different and probably not worth the price difference, but then you guys have to justify the price difference by manically promoting the product you decided you liked.

 

So when someone says that the Pro 500 does not seem to be worth the money as most closed portable headphones are under $300, there is a long back & forth withOUT any objective argument/reasons on the sonic qualities of why the Pro 500 should be worth that extra $100.

 

I seriously posted my original post out of curiosity to learn more about all of this, but at this point, I am just too frustrated to really care anymore.


Edited by money4me247 - 3/5/13 at 6:30am
post #308 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post

Lol... I did do that and I did hear the subtle differences. Really didn't feel like one sound was superior to another. I think the problem with audiophile mentality is that you think that there is a "best sound," and the way to reach a "best sound" is to throw more money at it. Then it turns out that the "best sound" is simply the sound signature that you personally prefer. Turns out the more expensive sound isn't necessarily better, just different and probably not worth the price difference, but then you guys have to justify the price difference by manically promoting the product you decided you liked.

 

So when someone says that the Pro 500 does not seem to be worth the money as most closed portable headphones are under $300, there is a long back & forth with hardly any objective argument/reasons on the sonic qualities of why the Pro 500 should be worth that extra $100.

 

I seriously posted my original post out of curiosity to learn more about all of this, but at this point, I am just too frustrated to really care anymore.

We finally agree on something.

post #309 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster75 View Post

We finally agree on something.

Frustrating for me b/c I said that the Pro 500 is not worth the money (gave examples of cheaper headphones in the same category that are sonically similar and headphones that are in a different class considered to be extremely high-end that are the same price and cheaper headphones from the same manufacturer with identical specs).

 

Internet responded with insults.

 

I asked okay, please explain to me why they are better.

 

Internet responded with go listen to them yourself.

 

Why was this experience frustrating for you?

post #310 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post

Frustrating for me b/c I said that the Pro 500 is not worth the money (gave examples of cheaper headphones in the same category that are sonically similar and headphones that are in a different class considered to be extremely high-end that are the same price and cheaper headphones from the same manufacturer with identical specs)...

 

Dude, I mentioned like 2 pages ago that the Pro 500s HAVE ALREADY BEEN PRICED AT $300 AND WILL PROBABLY GO LOWER!! So your primary "nitpick" will already fall on its ass!!! Stop saying that there are cheaper competitors unless V-Moda is priced now at $200 (which it isn't) or any others you mentioned... That's the first thing.

 

Second thing, as a past owner of the M100, MDR-1R, Denon D600, Denon D5000, etc. etc. I DEFINITELY believe/think that the Pro 500s excel in sound quality to most of these guys (not all)! As I mentioned on my review, you HAVE to take into consideration the WHOLE package (i.e. sound, comfort, PRICE, accessories, etc.). If judging ONLY on sound quality, I wouldn't mind having the Pro 500s as my go to cans, they are really that good... TO MY EARS!

 

Now, you can compile all the reviews and impressions everyone has given but EVERYONE appreciates sound/music in different ways. Yeah yeah, you can get the "basic" sound signature by reading a review, but the nuances will not be caught by everyone. I can talk all I want about instrument separation, details, etc. and not everyone will get the same results. Heck, sometimes I have a hard time when doing A/B comparisons (which is why I at least have to stick with a headphone for 1 or 2 weeks to fully appreciate it!).

 

So anyway, your main point of cheaper options is mute since you can get the Pro 500s cheap now, and if YOU are looking for a bassy can and DON'T care about DETAILS and also want the best value, just grab a trusty Panasonic RP-HTF600-S... don't compare them with anything... If you like em, just spend the $30 and be done with it, you don't have to look for the Spider PowerForce's, M-Audio Q40s, Beyer DT770 Pros, V-Moda M100s or insert any other bassy can in the world.

 

If your ONLY argument was money... well then... .... ... look for another thing to shoot the Pro 500s down now...

post #311 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post

Frustrating for me b/c I said that the Pro 500 is not worth the money (gave examples of cheaper headphones in the same category that are sonically similar and headphones that are in a different class considered to be extremely high-end that are the same price and cheaper headphones from the same manufacturer with identical specs).

 

Internet responded with insults.

 

I asked okay, please explain to me why they are better.

 

Internet responded with go listen to them yourself.

 

Why was this experience frustrating for you?

 

There's a huge disparity between what different people hear, and the extent of a sound signature they hear it. You can't completely trust reviews for purchasing a headphone; at best, they give a nice taste of what they probably sound like. It's not sensible at all to discount a headphone because of its alleged sound signature. So what if it has a V-shaped sound signature? Why should I buy a top-tier headphone with an n-shaped sound signature when my $60 K271 also have an n-shaped sound signature? Just because it has a certain sound signature doesn't mean that after the M100 or PRO900, there's no way to improve that sound signature. If that was the case, Ultrasone would have had to try damn hard to justify selling the $1,700 Edition 9, or JVC/Victor expecting $1,100 for the DX1000 (fabulous headphone by the way).

 

I'll use my Beyerdynamic DT48 as an example of reviews not completely fulfilling their promises. I read that they had the most realistic midrange of any sub-$500 headphone, even comparing to Stax, from reviews of people whose ears I trust. But when I got them, I was kind of disappointed. Now, their duties are relegated solely to mono music, because that's all they're really good for to me. I don't doubt that they sound great to the people who wrote those reviews, but seriously; reviews are only reliable to a certain extent and bashing anything without hearing them is silly. You can read reviews all day and still be completely off the mark on how a headphone sounds.

 

EDIT: One more example of something that didn't live up to their reviews: The K550. I expected a full upgrade from my K271. Instead, I got something that I ripped off my head within five seconds of a trumpet track. There's something seriously wrong with their upper midrange that, while mentioned in some reviews, wasn't mentioned to the degree that I felt existed in the particular K550 I tried.


Edited by Ishcabible - 3/5/13 at 8:09am
post #312 of 477
Deleted.
Edited by roma101 - 3/5/13 at 9:28am
post #313 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by gelocks View Post


If your ONLY argument was money... well then... .... ... look for another thing to shoot the Pro 500s down now...

The question is: why is he getting so hopped up about this HP being overpriced vs. others in the same price range? He could make the same argument against the PSB M4U 1/2. Or the Momentums. Or M-100. Or any other headphone he hasn't heard for himself yet.
Edited by roma101 - 3/5/13 at 9:55am
post #314 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishcabible View Post

There's a huge disparity between what different people hear, and the extent of a sound signature they hear it. You can't completely trust reviews for purchasing a headphone; at best, they give a nice taste of what they probably sound like. It's not sensible at all to discount a headphone because of its alleged sound signature. So what if it has a V-shaped sound signature? Why should I buy a top-tier headphone with an n-shaped sound signature when my $60 K271 also have an n-shaped sound signature? Just because it has a certain sound signature doesn't mean that after the M100 or PRO900, there's no way to improve that sound signature. If that was the case, Ultrasone would have had to try damn hard to justify selling the $1,700 Edition 9, or JVC/Victor expecting $1,100 for the DX1000 (fabulous headphone by the way).

I'll use my Beyerdynamic DT48 as an example of reviews not completely fulfilling their promises. I read that they had the most realistic midrange of any sub-$500 headphone, even comparing to Stax, from reviews of people whose ears I trust. But when I got them, I was kind of disappointed. Now, their duties are relegated solely to mono music, because that's all they're really good for to me. I don't doubt that they sound great to the people who wrote those reviews, but seriously; reviews are only reliable to a certain extent and bashing anything without hearing them is silly. You can read reviews all day and still be completely off the mark on how a headphone sounds.

EDIT: One more example of something that didn't live up to their reviews: The K550. I expected a full upgrade from my K271. Instead, I got something that I ripped off my head within five seconds of a trumpet track. There's something seriously wrong with their upper midrange that, while mentioned in some reviews, wasn't mentioned to the degree that I felt existed in the particular K550 I tried.

Great post, Ishcabible. This is why you'll never really know if a headphone is for you until you listen to it. You can read all you want but to base everything on public opinions is only going to do you a disservice if you don't try the hp yourself. Also listening/owning a hp and reading someone's review to see if it matches your impressions - this also educates you on what preferences that reviewer has vs. your own preferences. For example, Tyll at innerfidelity doesn't like Grados, too bright for him. If you find grados just fine to your ears, then that is something to keep in mind when reading his reviews. The UE6000 sounded more natural to him although the top end is slightly rolled off.

The person who just posted that nice M-100/500 comparo (thanks btw!), found the treble on the 500 too hot to his/her ears vs the M-100. To my ears, this isn't the case (i would call the treble on the KNS-8400, SRH-940, or Amperior a bit hot or edgy) but I am not surprised to read that the treble on the 500 extends farther than the M-100. Having owned the M-80 and having read about Val's own attitude on treble in loud/DJ environments and hearing loss, I am not surprised to hear that the treble while having extension maybe on the subdued, softer side.

money4me, only you can decide which headphone is worth it for you - but you have to listen to each of them for yourself. If you're new to the hobby, don't start out with a $300 headphone. Work your way up - the KRK KNS-8400 is at an excellent price point and punches well above its price range. Perhaps that hp can serve as a benchmark for you as you listen to other cans. The CAL is another good alternative. Listening to different cans at various price points is the only sure-fire way you'll be able to figure out if a headphone is worth the price tag for you.
Edited by roma101 - 3/5/13 at 10:23am
post #315 of 477

I personally love the sound from the eph-100's which makes me very interested in the pro 500 and the difference between three and four hundred dollars is meaningless to me. So I am going to give these a shot.

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