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What is harder to get right? The microphone end or the speaker end? - Page 2

post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarkmc2 View Post


Without the networks the 97dB speaker is now a 105 or 106dB speaker.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing 105-106dB coming from any dynamic paper cone driver.

 

se

post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post



I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing 105-106dB coming from any dynamic paper cone driver.

se
Sorry, I meant 102-103. I also used to think that was the domain of compression drivers and horns exclusively. The Hammers have a decent motor, tight gaps, light moving mass, short xmax and a very efficient, large vented enclosure. The cone area is in a sweet spot for moving a lot of air with miniscule travel. The system with networks is 96-97.

Nelson says the networks take 6dB away. So 102-103 without them. The little cap on the tweeters brings the level in just right to my taste, if it is shelving the last octave. The speaker sounds great with the tweeter and lousy without it.

With every factor in efficiency's favor, it adds up. As I said, it is a very atypical speaker. It was a labor of love by a musician with a great ear who took five years to develop it. Some are dismissive of the Super 12 driver, calling it a tweeked Emminence full range design. It is, except for the cone, spyder, glue, former, voice coil and motor design. Only the frame and basic slug of the magnet are the same. John, rest his soul, designed it because he felt music lovers should be able to buy an affordable, great sounding speaker that could play realistic volume and dynamics with a 0.7 watt amp.
Edited by Clarkmc2 - 9/20/12 at 1:02pm
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarkmc2 View Post


I also used to think that was the domain of compression drivers and horns exclusively. The Hammers have a decent motor, tight gaps, light moving mass, short xmax and a very efficient, large vented enclosure. The cone area is in a sweet spot for moving a lot of air with miniscule travel.

 

Yeah, but there are a number of other 12 inch drivers out there that fit that description, but I've never seen any of them that could do 105-106dB unless you count the rather nasty resonant peak around 2kHz.

 

Has anyone ever done a proper SPL plot of the Super 12 on its own?

 

se

post #19 of 22
Sorry Steve, as I corrected above 102-103 was my intended typing. In this design, the peak was never nasty. I'm sure some of it is still there, but everyone who has heard my rig has not been able to hear any problems. As a practical matter, this goes to audibility. Like you, I trust measurments but for my personal listening I either enjoy it or change it, measurements be damned. The audiophile doubters have walked away - reluctlantly - hearing a great deal to like and nothing wrong. It never had an obvious shout and it sure doesn't now.

I don't doubt the efficency because I have a low watt 14dB gain power amp and a zero gain preamp, and I still run the pot at eight oclock. It's loud there.

As I initally said, this is not garden variety equipment. There are less than two hundred Hammer 12s out there, less than ten Nelson built F2JFET amps, and only one Super 12 constructed by me to my specs. There are more F2s converted by Nelson, but not many.
Edited by Clarkmc2 - 9/20/12 at 1:27pm
post #20 of 22

Here is something about the S-12 speaker. In a way its still multi-driver as you said, being a augmented design. I still stand by my point that there are really good speakers these days are mostly of the multi driver type, especially if you are concerned with fidelity of the speaker. But hey, lets say even if I like the S-12 better, I have no problems with it, if it sounds good as well, so be it.

 

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0600/super12.htm


Edited by firev1 - 9/20/12 at 4:54pm
post #21 of 22

Hey clark, you seem to be reasonably knowledgeable about full-rangers. I built the back-loaded horn using the Fostex FE126En this summer, and quite frankly, I was amazed at how good it sounded. Maybe something about the high-efficiency or point-source, but again, I was floored by how well a pair of $50 drivers with nothing but wire in between could sound..

 

In the future, if I were to have say...$1000+ to spend on a pair of full-range drivers, what would you recommend? Is the Super-12 still on the market? I've looked at some Tang Band and Lowther stuff that looks pretty appealing.

post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

Yeah, but there are a number of other 12 inch drivers out there that fit that description, but I've never seen any of them that could do 105-106dB unless you count the rather nasty resonant peak around 2kHz.

Has anyone ever done a proper SPL plot of the Super 12 on its own?

se
The other drivers may fit the general description, but as I said they are not very good. I have done no measurements and I am not sure who has. The whole Hammer Dynamics thing was never a big commercial thrust; it is about filling a perceived void for enthusiasts. John may have done some measurements, but he is gone and his wife was not a technician. Dick Olsher felt the notch filter was needed; he co designed the network so he has a horse in this race. He is entitled to his opinion but he has never heard how I use it. Since we both like what we hear, I see no problem.

I related to Nelson Pass through a mutual friend (I don't know Nelson personally) that I use his amp, had ditched the network and figured that the frequency response might be pretty wild but the resulting reproduction was very convincing. He was enthusiastic about my report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firev1 View Post

Here is something about the S-12 speaker. In a way its still multi-driver as you said, being a augmented design. I still stand by my point that there are really good speakers these days are mostly of the multi driver type, especially if you are concerned with fidelity of the speaker. But hey, lets say even if I like the S-12 better, I have no problems with it, if it sounds good as well, so be it.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0600/super12.htm

Yes, that is Dick Olsher's review. Some of the links to others are still active on the Hammer Dynamics website.

I never said there are not a lot of good speakers with crossovers. I will say that the orthodoxy is too dominant for my taste. Full range has acquired a bad name because it is known mostly through people still trying to make Lowthers work. More than half a century of bizzare enclosure designs has not delivered balanced reproduction, but it has left a bad taste with non believers about extended range speakers.

My response to you is that I have some excellent multi way speakers, better than what most will ever hear. And that they are gathering dust or doing home theater duty because I much prefer music reproduced on my full range augmented system, and on my Stax system (also single driver). Once some of us go to the effort to put together a modern full range augmented system and amplify it properly, some of us are no longer satisfied with multi way crossover systems. We understand you, we have been there and done that, and we have found something we like better. And our systems are not your grandfather's full range system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OJNeg View Post

Hey clark, you seem to be reasonably knowledgeable about full-rangers. I built the back-loaded horn using the Fostex FE126En this summer, and quite frankly, I was amazed at how good it sounded. Maybe something about the high-efficiency or point-source, but again, I was floored by how well a pair of $50 drivers with nothing but wire in between could sound..

In the future, if I were to have say...$1000+ to spend on a pair of full-range drivers, what would you recommend? Is the Super-12 still on the market? I've looked at some Tang Band and Lowther stuff that looks pretty appealing.
Fostex stuff is fantastic. They cost a fraction what Lowther does and I think they sound much better.

I do suggest the Super 12s if you can build the cabinets. They are a lot easier than horns. The kits are still $650 US, like years ago. I have heard Coleen only has a few left. I brought my pair in completed for about $1000 or $1100, including purchasing a router and a ton of clamps, and a lot of dampening material from Parts Express and others. I would recommend Omega speakers, Louis does a great job, but his prices are now over your budget. Used might be another story.


There is a way to turn almost any amp into a reasonable tranconductance amp. Resistors will eat some power but these speakers are so efficient it doesn't matter.

If you go the Super 12 route, PM me and I will guide you through the whole thing.
Edited by Clarkmc2 - 9/22/12 at 3:01am
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