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Sennheiser MOMENTUM Review - Page 169

post #2521 of 3280
More graphs...

1) First I recorded RHA30 using HD215 as microphone:


2) And also Momentum using HD215 as microphone:


3) Next I recorded RAH30 using Momentum as microphone:


4) Next I recorded Momentum using RAH30 as microphone:


Observations:
On 1) we see dip at 12Hz, and on 2) we see bump at 10Hz, then on 3) we see that bump again as artifact introduced by using Momentum as microphone, and on 4) we see that dip of RHA30 and bump of Momentum at 10Hz they added up to make straight line.

Looking at 1) and 2) we can see that noise floor is 10dB lower for RHA30.

Conclusions:
Neither RHA30 nor Momentum can go below 40Hz without distortion. The difference between 1st and 2nd harmonics is 30dB for RHA30 and 25dB for Momentum.

Note:
Headphones were driven by T744, which got it's signal through toslink.

I personally think though that harmonics of 40Hz sound on Momentum are more prominent when you listen, because of closed design and resonance. While RHA30 open design is free of such resonance the distortion appears more because of physical properties of the driver, which at 40Hz is pushed to its limits.
post #2522 of 3280

Cute work, however, I don't think headphones make good microphones and visa versa. Part of doing lab work is having accurate measurement systems that you can rely upon.

post #2523 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Cute work, however, I don't think headphones make good microphones and visa versa. Part of doing lab work is having accurate measurement systems that you can rely upon.

 

+1

post #2524 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post

Please explain how one would scientifically produce a frequency/frequency graph, and it's practical use against a frequency/volume graph.
I've never heard of the existence of such a thing.
I'm pretty sure there is lots of other things you didn't hear of, so why you are surprised?

Ignorance is not a sin - so why I ask, are you being rude/patronising? 
I asked a simple question but it seems you can't even answer it. 

 

All you've done since is provide frequency/volume graphs... I still don't see these legendary frequency/frequency graphs anywhere.

post #2525 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Cute work, however, I don't think headphones make good microphones and visa versa. Part of doing lab work is having accurate measurement systems that you can rely upon.

lol

post #2526 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by stainless824 View Post
 

lol

 

Just say'in  :biggrin: 

post #2527 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

Cute work, however, I don't think headphones make good microphones and visa versa. Part of doing lab work is having accurate measurement systems that you can rely upon.
You're off course right, but on the other hand if you look at results you'd notice they are quite consistent regardless of which headphone I use as mic. I think the baseline is that I was wrong in saying that Momentum can't go below 80Hz. It is also true that Momentum can play 10Hz sine wave, nevertheless below 40Hz sound becomes more and more distorted, and at 10Hz all your ears hear is 2nd and 3rd harmonic. But this is the same for the two other headphones (RHA30 and HD215), and it probably is true for most headphones at least below certain price level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post

Ignorance is not a sin - so why I ask, are you being rude/patronising? 

I asked a simple question but it seems you can't even answer it. 

All you've done since is provide frequency/volume graphs... I still don't see these legendary frequency/frequency graphs anywhere.
The graphs show you frequency response for single frequency. The frequency/frequency would be a spectrogram like one in foobar2k., but without good microphone I don't think I can provide one that would mean anything. I made more measurements than what I present here, and I found that 40Hz is quite undistorted, while with 35Hz (on graphs) harmonics become more significant. I was hoping to find that Momentum has more harmonic distortion than RHA30, but I failed, since it doesn't - at least not in my measurements.

Momentum do have nice sub bass, but I think it really depends on your source.
post #2528 of 3280

The graphs aren't just one frequency.  It's either pink or white noise being played back, and recording the db level of the response throughout the entire frequency range.

 

Edit:  nvm you were talking about your own specific graphs.


Edited by TMRaven - 10/8/13 at 4:09pm
post #2529 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolas View Post


You're off course right, but on the other hand if you look at results you'd notice they are quite consistent regardless of which headphone I use as mic. I think the baseline is that I was wrong in saying that Momentum can't go below 80Hz. It is also true that Momentum can play 10Hz sine wave, nevertheless below 40Hz sound becomes more and more distorted, and at 10Hz all your ears hear is 2nd and 3rd harmonic. But this is the same for the two other headphones (RHA30 and HD215), and it probably is true for most headphones at least below certain price level.
The graphs show you frequency response for single frequency. The frequency/frequency would be a spectrogram like one in foobar2k., but without good microphone I don't think I can provide one that would mean anything. I made more measurements than what I present here, and I found that 40Hz is quite undistorted, while with 35Hz (on graphs) harmonics become more significant. I was hoping to find that Momentum has more harmonic distortion than RHA30, but I failed, since it doesn't - at least not in my measurements.

Momentum do have nice sub bass, but I think it really depends on your source.

If you have musical skills and the ability to perceive such low frequencies, you will not mistake the fundamental from a harmonic. It's as if your ear can feel the pressure waves and almost count them. Once you get to 30 Hz that perception vanishes and it is more of a tone. Either you can perceive this or you cannot. I found this when using Analog Electronic Music Synthesizers, long ago. I put a scope on a real quality microphone to see what was in the air. This was done at a quality recording studio, the original "The Hit Factory" in NYC.

post #2530 of 3280

It's not exactly scientific, but using this tool:

http://www.audionotch.com/app/tune/

I can clearly hear a tone down to 20hz without any significant audible artifacts (and no harmonics to be found - as a musician I find these easy to detect - I can even whistle a harmonic :p)- below that it's just feeling/hearing 'movement'.

 

All this tool proves really is that the Momentum, most importantly, can play these notes. I'm not a dubstep-basshead, so the actual quality of the very lowest sub-bass bares no significance to me. 

I doubt you'll be able to find many headphones at all that perform just as well in the absolute sub-bass region as they do in the midrange or treble, especially a closed-back headphone. 

post #2531 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post
 

It's not exactly scientific, but using this tool:

http://www.audionotch.com/app/tune/

I can clearly hear a tone down to 20hz without any significant audible artifacts (and no harmonics to be found - as a musician I find these easy to detect - I can even whistle a harmonic :p)- below that it's just feeling/hearing 'movement'.

 

All this tool proves really is that the Momentum, most importantly, can play these notes. I'm not a dubstep-basshead, so the actual quality of the very lowest sub-bass bares no significance to me. 

I doubt you'll be able to find many headphones at all that perform just as well in the absolute sub-bass region as they do in the midrange or treble, especially a closed-back headphone. 

 

Thanks for posting this, people without musical experience can't always tell what they're hearing. Perhaps that's why koolas couldn't accept what I was saying. By the way my HD600 and HD558 can also hit the bottom. I tried a pair of Soul SL300, overpriced basshead cans, which had an exaggerated bass but couldn't dig that deep and had a lousy midrange.

 

I've been using a pair of HD600's with a Fiio E12 amp with the bass boost switch on. The E12 bass boost is for sub bass, no midbass hump. The HD600's are open back, not portable. The sound is truly magical. The clink and clang of cymbals and sound of drums sound so real, everything sounds fantastic. I spent 45 minutes comparing the HD600 and HD650 cans at J&R and left with the HD600. I so wanted the HD650's but my ears demanded the HD600's.


Edited by StanD - 10/9/13 at 6:09am
post #2532 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolas View Post
 
The graphs show you frequency response for single frequency. The frequency/frequency would be a spectrogram like one in foobar2k., but without good microphone I don't think I can provide one that would mean anything. I made more measurements than what I present here, and I found that 40Hz is quite undistorted, while with 35Hz (on graphs) harmonics become more significant. I was hoping to find that Momentum has more harmonic distortion than RHA30, but I failed, since it doesn't - at least not in my measurements.

 

I'm pretty sure a spectrogram is frequency against time, not frequency against frequency.

 

Perhaps what you're talking about are waterfall charts - but they show frequency/amplitude/time. 

I still have no idea what a frequency/frequency graph is.

post #2533 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post

I'm pretty sure a spectrogram is frequency against time, not frequency against frequency.

Perhaps what you're talking about are waterfall charts - but they show frequency/amplitude/time. 
I still have no idea what a frequency/frequency graph is.
And if frequency changes monotonically in time then guess what you get...
Really I regret I said anything...
post #2534 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post

I'm pretty sure a spectrogram is frequency against time, not frequency against frequency.

Perhaps what you're talking about are waterfall charts - but they show frequency/amplitude/time. 
I still have no idea what a frequency/frequency graph is.
And if frequency changes monotonically in time then guess what you get...
Really I regret I said anything...

Well you havn't yet actually said anything.
I still don't see these fabled frequency/frequency graphs. Either produce them or stop blowing smoke.

 

A given frequency by definition cannot change monotonically.

"Monotonic change" is an oxymoron. 


Edited by GREQ - 10/10/13 at 1:25pm
post #2535 of 3280
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post
 

Well you havn't yet actually said anything.
I still don't see these fabled frequency/frequency graphs. Either produce them or stop blowing smoke.

 

A given frequency by definition cannot change monotonically.

"Monotonic change" is an oxymoron. 

Technically, he wasn't playing chords. :regular_smile :  I hear the Devil's Tritone coming.

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