Originally Posted by chicolom
I can't follow your logic. Your saying the depth, the angle, and the "hard foam" are changing the signature:
I didn't say it WAS and there is no way to prove anything we say. The only thing the angle does IMO is fool the brain and then give you a little more air inside the pads perhaps. I also think that angle and the extra distance helps the mids not sound so forward. Since the Q701 pads don't compress as much that really helps retain the airy sound, sound clarity and treble.
So basically what I was saying is that if you had as much air inside the K712 and Annie pads as the Q701 pads and your ears were the exact same distance away they would sound closer to the Q701's sound yet still have extra bass.
I really don't think it's JUST the memory foam causing the decreased treble. I think the only reason the Annie and K712 have less treble is due to the distance and not JUST due to that extra bass and warmth. I'm not buying it that it all just because of the extra bass and something else has to decrease in volume. If you hear the K601 pads you'll probably agree.
So I think it would have been easy to have bass like found on the Annie with a standard Q701 pad WITH some internal modifications. The Q701 foam actually feels much harder than Annie foam that has warmed up.
As for depth, I already said the K712 has deeper pads than the Anniversary, but your saying that doesn't count because it's not the exact same depth as the Q701? So what. They're two different pads - they're not going to be exact. With both the Q701 and K712 my ears barely touch on either pad, while they do touch with the Anniversary pads. That's close enough. Regardless of the depth, both the K712 and Anniversary pads affect the signature the same way. What's different between them is how intimate the sound is Vs. how distant they sound. That's basically it.
I don't think the difference in depth between the two is enough for there to be much of an audible change. I imagine the K712 pads also compress a lot especially when warm. It totally makes sense why the K712 would be more distant and less forward sounding. I think maybe it's due to your ears being slightly further away from the drivers than with the Annie pads.
The K712 pads don't look that much deeper and they still compress and are flat. My point was that any pad with more air between the driver and your ear is going to have more treble and a clearer sound. The difference in sound between the K712 and Annie pads is probably very very subtle. Then who knows is different inside the K712 pads.
As for flat vs angled pads, I've worn the Q701 with the angled pads flipped in reverse and it doesn't really change the signature (the imaging changes a little, but that's not what we're talking about here). Some people use them with the pads flipped the wrong way all the time!
Yep, it's because they still have the same amount of air between your ear and the driver. Same treble quantity.
So from my experience neither the depth or angle really affect the signature that much. They DO affect the presentation and imaging.
You should try some K601 pads and you would probably disagree. I know the K601 pads are softer and it's not a fair comparison to Q701 pads. K601 pads due to the depth (IMO) give you more shouty mids, smaller and less airy soundstage and less treble. The sound is more muffled/congested yet it's not any warmer! Oh and it's also smoother with harsh/fatiguing tracks with forward upper mids/treble. Weird. I already mentioned this but with Q701 pads you get more warmth/bass, less forward low mids and still get that airy soundstage.
So I think Annie pads are probably like K601 pads but with better bass.
I wonder what FLAT Q701 pads would sound like? I used to think the Q701 pads were bad but they're actually way better than K400 and K601 pads.
The only thing left is that harder foam behind the pad. Maybe that does something, maybe it doesn't (it's a layer behind the pad, so it can't do that much sealing). Regardless, I still say it's 95% the memory foam material changing the sound.
You could be right, but who knows? I think with modified Q701 pads (at the factory!) you can get an even better sound and no loss of bass from the Annie sound.
Also..here's a thought. Why do you think there are "vents" on the baffle behind the clips? I wondered this myself.
My new K400 pads on the back have no holes (no leakage) on the clip areas and give me more bass than the old K400 pads that have foam exposed. The new K400 pad clip "holes" are just plastic and seal everything better.
BTW, did you see my impressions on the K712? I said it was darker/less airy and had less upper mids than the Anniversary. The K712 is further away in sound from the Q701 than the Anniversary is (signature-wise). Do you still think you'd prefer the K712 over the Anniversary??
I would have to hear it for myself. I did read all your impressions. I don't know if the differences are great enough for me to like it. The main reasons I don't love the Annie is that it's darker and less airy than even my HD-650. Yet it's sound is too forward in some areas like the low mids (K601 pads cause the same thing to occur, but without adding warmth). If the K712 pushed things back a tad I might prefer that sound. I don't know for sure if the reason I dislike the Annie is due to it's upper mids like I originally thought.
I think a headphone can be very full sounding in the mids and have very good bass yet not be as dark as the Annie. AKG just needs to experiment with pads more! The HD-650 I have has very full mids, good treble and still has some airiness left somewhere. That's quite an accomplishment! It's very forgiving though and it's upper mids are not as forward as the Q701 though. HD-650 doesn't sound dark to me, but very close. Smooth sounding and a little colored, but duh. It's quite forgiving of harsh material probably due to it's upper mids and treble.
I wonder if the K712 is darker and bassier than the HD-650? BTW I think the Annie might have been even warmer/darker than my HD-650!