Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition - Page 201

post #3001 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acix View Post

Maybe in the past I used to think like you, but then I saw AKG changing the K702 drivers part number from 2400Z00070 (6/09 manual), to 2400Z00080 (10/12 manual). Looks like they're going to use the newest drivers available when they'll finish the 80s drivers. Today the K-712 newest driver is the 2400Z00090, but tomorrow, or the next year we'll probably see the 90s drivers mount in the Chinese new K701/2, and so on. Beside, AKG never claim they change the drivers!

 

 

AKG K702 06/09 drivers part number.

 

AKG K702 10/12 drivers part number.

 

 

Or peraphs 70 => austrian made , 80 => chinese made for K702 , and 90 => K712 made in austria .


Edited by HaVoC-28 - 8/30/13 at 10:40am
post #3002 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acix View Post

Maybe in the past I used to think like you, but then I saw AKG changing the K702 drivers part number from 2400Z00070 (6/09 manual), to 2400Z00080 (10/12 manual). Looks like they're going to use the newest drivers available when they'll finish the 80s drivers. Today the K-712 newest driver is the 2400Z00090, but tomorrow, or the next year we'll probably see the 90s drivers mount in the Chinese new K701/2, and so on. Beside, AKG never claim they change the drivers!

 

 

 

Whoah, take it easy.  You just asked me if they had the same part number and I said "No" because they don't.  Check the post again.

 

I never said I thought the driver was different.  I already said a while ago that I thought the drivers were the same.

 

That doesn't mean they sound the same though, and they don't.  Go listen to a K712 and tell me it sounds the same.

post #3003 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

 

 

Whoah, take it easy.  You just asked me if they had the same part number and I said "No" because they don't.  Check the post again.

 

I never said I thought the driver was different.  I already said a while ago that I thought the drivers were the same.

 

That doesn't mean they sound the same though, and they don't.  Go listen to a K712 and tell me it sounds the same.

 

Do you mean they have the same drivers, but they don't sound the same because of the K712 pads, or the missing foam ring? Unfortunately in Israel you don't have a place to check out any of the K70x models, they only bring here the K240, K271.

post #3004 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acix View Post

 

Do you mean they have the same drivers, but they don't sound the same because of the K712 pads, or the missing foam ring? Unfortunately in Israel you don't have a place to check out any of the K70x models, they only bring here the K240, K271.

 

I think they're probably the same.  AKG won't ever give you a straight answer if you ask them, as they just spill canned lines like "...the K712 uses a specially selected capsule" or "...The K712 uses a new capsule number".

 

The K712 sounds different regardless of what pads the headphones are using.  If you put the same pads on both the K712 and K702, they still won't sound the same.  In addition it also has unique pads that have a unique affect on the sound.  It affects the signature in the same was as the Anniversary's memory foam pads, but it sounds more open and less intimate due to a deeper earcup.

 

 

The K712 does have the foam ring under the pad.  I just took it off for the picture so you could see the driver better.

post #3005 of 3321

Anyone use these cans with a WA2 or a Littledot VIII SE? Would like to know your impressions.

 

Also, soundstage wise, how is the soundstage and imaging? 2d like he-500 or more 3d?

post #3006 of 3321

I think i'm captain obvious here but I think the reason the Annie sounds darker than the Q701 is not due to there being extra bass (like a balancing act etc) or that the pads are made out of memory foam. It's only because the pads are flat and even more compressed.

When your ears are further away from the driver there is more treble and a clearer sound. This is how it is with the Q701 pads. I think the reason I don't like the Annie isn't due to it being warm.

 

If you install K601 pads on the Q701 it sounds like you have less treble and a warmer (and more muffled) sound yet at the same time you have less bass! Weird and impossible right?! The mids with K601 pads on the Q701 sound more forward and "shouty".

 

So it's probably that the memory foam pads put your ears closer to the driver and that they have that internal hard piece of foam for a better seal.

 

It makes sense that the K712 has different pads. Maybe with the K712 pads they don't compress as much as there is more air in between the driver and your ear? Sounds like it!

 

AKG could add that internal hard foam backing to some Q701 pads (that's on the Annie pads) and see what it does. I think it's still possible to get the airy sound of the Q701 AND the nice bass. No kidding. Doesn't have to be dark.

 

When I added Q701 foam pads to my K400 LP I got nearly the same soundstage and more bass!! It's warmer but Q701 pads are even better than K601 flat pads. The treble didn't really go south much.

 

You'd think that since K601 pads put your ears so close to the driver you'd get more bass but the pads are softer and don't improve the bass much at all.

 

So IMO totally flat pads are not what I like... K712 pads sound a bit different.

 

Now we need angled memory foam pads :biggrin: Maybe AKG could use two types of foam. They could easily improve the bass with bass without memory foam. Why do I keep thinking memory foam is the reason for the extra bass?!


Edited by tdockweiler - 9/11/13 at 4:40pm
post #3007 of 3321
Because memory foam seals better than standard pads. It does and will add more bass. If you used leather pads on the Q701, I pretty much guarantee it'd have even more bass. The more seal, the more bass. Just try putting 770 pads on the 880/990. Watch how every will sound incredibly muddy and bloated. The try the 990 pads on the 770. The bass is gone, and everything turns to ear piercing treble.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 9/11/13 at 8:09pm
post #3008 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

Because memory foam seals better than standard pads. It does and will add more bass. If you used leather pads on the Q701, I pretty much guarantee it'd have even more bass. The more seal, the more bass. Just try putting 770 pads on the 880/990. Watch how every will sound incredibly muddy and bloated. The try the 990 pads on the 770. The bass is gone, and everything turns to ear piercing treble.

 

I don't know if this is true or not, but I think there's more to it than that. I know a good seal plays a huge role in the sound.

The memory foam inside is really super soft and not much different than the Q701 foam actually.

I was thinking it has more to do with the thick hard foam strip under the actual memory foam itself. If you look behind the pad where the twist lock things are it's a whole strip going all the way around. That was a good idea..

I need to take a picture of this since I destroyed my Annie pads. It's not on the Q701 pads at all.

 

So yeah I guess it's a combination of that hard foam strip AND the memory foam pads AND your ears being closer to the driver.

 

I know you're probably right, but not sure if the memory foam is 100% the reason in this case. I remember when I used XB500 pads on a DJ100 it turned it into a bass monster. Sounded TERRIBLE! I think that was also due with how the pad material was pleather.

 

Who knows maybe the fabric of the pads is different too.

 

What gave me this silly idea in the previous post is that the new K400 pads I have give me better bass due to having no foam in the back. Just hard plastic and no air leaking in and out. I was actually surprised how much bass you can get with stock K400 pads. Not like a Q701 though. I have a 2nd K400 with some pads with foam inside the back and the bass is much worse.


Edited by tdockweiler - 9/11/13 at 8:31pm
post #3009 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post
 

I think i'm captain obvious here but I think the reason the Annie sounds darker than the Q701 is not due to there being extra bass (like a balancing act etc) or that the pads are made out of memory foam. It's only because the pads are flat and even more compressed.  When your ears are further away from the driver there is more treble and a clearer sound. This is how it is with the Q701 pads.

 

 

The K712 pads are deeper than the Anniversary pads, but they still make the headphone sound just as warm.  The sound is less intimate, but it's still the same warmth.  So...I think that disproves your theory.

 

 

AKG could add that internal hard foam backing to some Q701 pads (that's on the Annie pads) and see what it does. I think it's still possible to get the airy sound of the Q701 AND the nice bass. No kidding. Doesn't have to be dark.

 

I still have no idea what your talking about with this "hard foam"...:blink:

 

 

 

So IMO totally flat pads are not what I like... K712 pads sound a bit different.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by totally flat, but the K712 pads aren't angled at all.  They're completely symmetrical. 

 

 

Why do I keep thinking memory foam is the reason for the extra bass?!

 

Because...it is?  ;)

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post


 

I was thinking it has more to do with the thick hard foam strip under the actual memory foam itself. If you look behind the pad where the twist lock things are it's a whole strip going all the way around. That was a good idea..It's not on the Q701 pads at all.

 

I don't see this "hard foam strip" you're talking about.  The Q701 and K712 pads look pretty much the same underneath to me.  I need pics!!!


Edited by chicolom - 9/11/13 at 9:47pm
post #3010 of 3321
Quote:
 

The K712 pads are deeper than the Anniversary pads, but they still make the headphone sound just as warm.  The sound is less intimate, but it's still the same warmth.  So...I think that disproves your theory.

 

No, I think in order to disprove this you would need to have memory foam pads that are the exact same size and depth as the Q701 pads and then have them not compress. I think the Q701 pads don't compress at all!

The K712 and Annie pads don't look all that much different. Maybe AKG put something inside the K712 pads that's different? Also, I only said that it's what made them darker (less trebly). In some cases, less treble doesn't always equal more warmth, but usually it does. K601 pads made my Q701 darker but without any more warmth! :confused_face_2: Again, I didn't say the flat pads were what made them have more bass, that'd be dumb.

 

This sounds nuts but I think there's a way to get the Q701 much fuller sounding in the mids (and increase the bass) and still not have it sound a little congested/muffled and too dark. The trick is a clone of the Q701 pads using memory foam and have it NOT compress. Impossible right? Maybe somehow limit how compressed they get. AKG would have to over stuff them.

 

I don't know how or why but Q701 pads on my K400 made the mids of my K400 much fuller sounding (and added bass) but at the same time I didn't lose the soundstage or much treble. I mean this you'd think would be virtually impossible! You lose some air, but not much at all. I think you can get a decent amount of warmth without it being too dark. HD-650 and my DJ100 are two perfect examples.

 

Seriously with K601 pads I get sort of the Annie sound symptoms but without extra bass/warmth yet there is less treble. This is REALLY hard to describe and seems impossible. Just like with the Annie pads you lose some airiness and sound clarity. I hate the K601 pads for the EXACT same reasons as I hate the Annie pads. Not kidding!

 

K601 pads with the hard foam underneath might sound similar to the Annie pads.

 

Not important, but K601 pads are VERY squishy and go flat so easily. Q701 pads are much harder. K601 pads stink. I haven't felt that they sounded good on anything! They also make the Q701 less trebly but more muffled and shouty in the mids.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by totally flat, but the K712 pads aren't angled at all.  They're completely symmetrical. 

 

Oh I know they're not angled. I was just thinking that they might sound better for me since there is a chance they don't go as flat. With the Annie pads my ears would often touch the driver or something. Don't know what exactly it was because I never experienced that on the Q701. They compress even more when the memory foam warms up.

 

Why do I keep thinking memory foam is the reason for the extra bass?!

 

Because...it is?  ;)

 

I'm thinking it's not so much just the memory foam itself but the design of the pads internally and that they're flat. A combination of many things.

 

PICS coming up soon...my camera battery was dead.

 

TL;DR:

 

So anyway, what I mean was that if the memory foam pads were not flat the sound wouldn't be as dark. I know you can still get nice and full mids. You'd get similar amounts of treble perhaps. Maybe a little less. It would then be more of a competitor to the HD-650. My HD-650 is actually more open and airy than the Annie was. Most say you can't get something extra without sacrificing another part of the signature but lately i've been proved wrong with the K400 and Q701 pads.

 

Pretty sure I'd like the K712 more than the Annie, but who knows. It makes no sense why I would love the HD-650 but not the Annie.

 


Edited by tdockweiler - 9/11/13 at 11:28pm
post #3011 of 3321

Ok, these are some crappy photos but my lighting sucks and so does my camera.

 

This is the memory foam in AKG Anniversary pads. It's not hard at all and definitely "real" memory foam, but not as hard as the Tempur Pedic kind. Exact same size as a CD!

 

 

 

This piece is underneath the memory foam itself. It's a round piece that goes all the way around. You can see it underneath the "clips" of the Annie pad. On the Q701 it's just lighter foam and that's it.

This stuff is much harder and my guess is what seals in the bass. So both this and the memory foam itself.

 

I couldn't remove the entire circle unfortunately. I wasn't planning on destroying the pads but I did anyway.

post #3012 of 3321

I can't follow your logic.  Your saying the depth, the angle, and the "hard foam" are changing the signature:

 

As for depth, I already said the K712 has deeper pads than the Anniversary, but your saying that doesn't count because it's not the exact same depth as the Q701?   So what.  They're two different pads - they're not going to be exact. With both the Q701 and K712 my ears barely touch on either pad, while they do touch with the Anniversary pads.  That's close enough.  Regardless of the depth, both the K712 and Anniversary pads affect the signature the same way.  What's different between them is how intimate the sound is Vs. how distant they sound.  That's basically it. 

 

As for flat vs angled pads, I've worn the Q701 with the angled pads flipped in reverse and it doesn't really change the signature (the imaging changes a little, but that's not what we're talking about here).  Some people use them with the pads flipped the wrong way all the time! 

 

So from my experience neither the depth or angle really affect the signature that much.  They DO affect the presentation and imaging. 

 

 

The only thing left is that harder foam behind the pad.  Maybe that does something, maybe it doesn't (it's a layer behind the pad, so it can't do that much sealing).  Regardless, I still say it's 95% the memory foam material changing the sound.

 

 

BTW, did you see my impressions on the K712?  I said it was darker/less airy and had less upper mids than the Anniversary.  The K712 is further away in sound from the Q701 than the Anniversary is (signature-wise).  Do you still think you'd prefer the K712 over the Anniversary??


Edited by chicolom - 9/12/13 at 12:43am
post #3013 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post
 

Ok, these are some crappy photos but my lighting sucks and so does my camera.

 

This is the memory foam in AKG Anniversary pads. It's not hard at all and definitely "real" memory foam, but not as hard as the Tempur Pedic kind. Exact same size as a CD!

 

 

 

This piece is underneath the memory foam itself. It's a round piece that goes all the way around. You can see it underneath the "clips" of the Annie pad. On the Q701 it's just lighter foam and that's it.

This stuff is much harder and my guess is what seals in the bass. So both this and the memory foam itself.

 

I couldn't remove the entire circle unfortunately. I wasn't planning on destroying the pads but I did anyway.

 

That yellow foam looks identical to what I found within Hifiman's pleather earpads, which was not really REAL memory foam, more like heat-activated foam.

post #3014 of 3321

Anyone know where I can order new foam O-rings for the Annies? Lately I noticed that I may have mismatched ones... cause the sound absorption is noticeably different in one ear than the other.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/564427/k701-vs-k702-vs-q701-which-one-considering-recabling-among-other-things/15#post_7755190

 

I think mine might have different ones cause one side is more "muffled sounding. I tried switching the foam rings and noticed that the sound difference was consistent. Whichever side had the more "muffled" sounding ring had the less airy sound... even when wore them backwards to listen... it was consistent on one side.

 

EDIT: Anyone also able to provide me with the part number for the foam ring??


Edited by joebobbilly - 9/12/13 at 9:24am
post #3015 of 3321
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post
 

I can't follow your logic.  Your saying the depth, the angle, and the "hard foam" are changing the signature:

 

I didn't say it WAS and there is no way to prove anything we say. The only thing the angle does IMO is fool the brain and then give you a little more air inside the pads perhaps. I also think that angle and the extra distance helps the mids not sound so forward. Since the Q701 pads don't compress as much that really helps retain the airy sound, sound clarity and treble. 

 

So basically what I was saying is that if you had as much air inside the K712 and Annie pads as the Q701 pads and your ears were the exact same distance away they would sound closer to the Q701's sound yet still have extra bass.

 

I really don't think it's JUST the memory foam causing the decreased treble. I think the only reason the Annie and K712 have less treble is due to the distance and not JUST due to that extra bass and warmth. I'm not buying it that it all just because of the extra bass and something else has to decrease in volume. If you hear the K601 pads you'll probably agree.

 

So I think it would have been easy to have bass like found on the Annie with a standard Q701 pad WITH some internal modifications. The Q701 foam actually feels much harder than Annie foam that has warmed up.

 

As for depth, I already said the K712 has deeper pads than the Anniversary, but your saying that doesn't count because it's not the exact same depth as the Q701?   So what.  They're two different pads - they're not going to be exact. With both the Q701 and K712 my ears barely touch on either pad, while they do touch with the Anniversary pads.  That's close enough.  Regardless of the depth, both the K712 and Anniversary pads affect the signature the same way.  What's different between them is how intimate the sound is Vs. how distant they sound.  That's basically it. 

 

I don't think the difference in depth between the two is enough for there to be much of an audible change. I imagine the K712 pads also compress a lot especially when warm. It totally makes sense why the K712 would be more distant and less forward sounding. I think maybe it's due to your ears being slightly further away from the drivers than with the Annie pads.

 

The K712 pads don't look that much deeper and they still compress and are flat. My point was that any pad with more air between the driver and your ear is going to have more treble and a clearer sound. The difference in sound between the K712 and Annie pads is probably very very subtle. Then who knows is different inside the K712 pads.

 

 

As for flat vs angled pads, I've worn the Q701 with the angled pads flipped in reverse and it doesn't really change the signature (the imaging changes a little, but that's not what we're talking about here).  Some people use them with the pads flipped the wrong way all the time! 

 

Yep, it's because they still have the same amount of air between your ear and the driver. Same treble quantity.

 

So from my experience neither the depth or angle really affect the signature that much.  They DO affect the presentation and imaging. 

 

You should try some K601 pads and you would probably disagree. I know the K601 pads are softer and it's not a fair comparison to Q701 pads. K601 pads due to the depth (IMO) give you more shouty mids, smaller and less airy soundstage and less treble. The sound is more muffled/congested yet it's not any warmer! Oh and it's also smoother with harsh/fatiguing tracks with forward upper mids/treble. Weird. I already mentioned this but with Q701 pads you get more warmth/bass, less forward low mids and still get that airy soundstage.

 

So I think Annie pads are probably like K601 pads but with better bass.

 

I wonder what FLAT Q701 pads would sound like? I used to think the Q701 pads were bad but they're actually way better than K400 and K601 pads.

 

The only thing left is that harder foam behind the pad.  Maybe that does something, maybe it doesn't (it's a layer behind the pad, so it can't do that much sealing).  Regardless, I still say it's 95% the memory foam material changing the sound.

 

You could be right, but who knows? I think with modified Q701 pads (at the factory!) you can get an even better sound and no loss of bass from the Annie sound.

 

Also..here's a thought. Why do you think there are "vents" on the baffle behind the clips? I wondered this myself.

My new K400 pads on the back have no holes (no leakage) on the clip areas and give me more bass than the old K400 pads that have foam exposed. The new K400 pad clip "holes" are just plastic and seal everything better.

 

 

BTW, did you see my impressions on the K712?  I said it was darker/less airy and had less upper mids than the Anniversary.  The K712 is further away in sound from the Q701 than the Anniversary is (signature-wise).  Do you still think you'd prefer the K712 over the Anniversary??

 

I would have to hear it for myself. I did read all your impressions. I don't know if the differences are great enough for me to like it. The main reasons I don't love the Annie is that it's darker and less airy than even my HD-650. Yet it's sound is too forward in some areas like the low mids (K601 pads cause the same thing to occur, but without adding warmth). If the K712 pushed things back a tad I might prefer that sound. I don't know for sure if the reason I dislike the Annie is due to it's upper mids like I originally thought.

 

I think a headphone can be very full sounding in the mids and have very good bass yet not be as dark as the Annie. AKG just needs to experiment with pads more! The HD-650 I have has very full mids, good treble and still has some airiness left somewhere. That's quite an accomplishment! It's very forgiving though and it's upper mids are not as forward as the Q701 though. HD-650 doesn't sound dark to me, but very close. Smooth sounding and a little colored, but duh. It's quite forgiving of harsh material probably due to it's upper mids and treble.

 

I wonder if the K712 is darker and bassier than the HD-650? BTW I think the Annie might have been even warmer/darker than my HD-650!

 

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Headphones (full-size)
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition