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The diary entries of a little girl in her 30s! ~ Part 2 - Page 623  

post #9331 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

I'd just like to point out that not all tube amps sound "sleepy" or "slow." In fact, that's not a function of the tubes but the amp design itself. It's a very common myth that tubes make everything sound warm and mushy. That's not true. In fact, there are tube amps that sound snappier and more detailed than a lot of solid state amps. So in short: you're not hearing the tubes so much as the amp.

 

You probably know this eke, but I'm just posting it for anyone lurking who might see your impressions and think "yup that's tubes." These misconceptions have only gotten worse over the years because of the huge influx of cheap Chinese tube amps. The Chinese specifically love the "warm / euphony" type signature for their cheaper gear. Also you have people like NwAv's minions who scream bloody murder about tubes, claiming they add all this distortion.

 

Never mind transistor mist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

Tubes are actually more linear than transistors, believe it or not. It's transistors have a tendency toward higher distortion. Surprised? I was. Audiophile myths are crazy. You'd think tubes did nothing but introduce junk into an amp's sound if you listened to some of these people railing against them. Good tube amps tend to be more expensive. Some people have a knee jerk reaction when you suggest cost = performance. Of course, there are plenty of solid state amps that are better than a lot of crappy tube amps. And not all expensive tube amps are better; some expensive tube amps SUCK. Like, really suck. But yeah, some of the best amps I've ever heard are expensive tube amps. So people think that must be a sham because they've read some papers online and fancy themselves experts and live in this constructed fantasy where anyone spending more than they do is a fool who has been "tricked" into thinking their tubes are speychul when in fact they're just paying more for amps that are adding junk into the signal. 

 

Plus there's this weird push among some publications to association musicality with highly colored sound. Like, a bloated boomy bass is supposed to be musical or something. I guess.

 

Plus you got the influx of cheap-o tube amps that sound like crap. It's the amp's fault though, NOT the tubes!

 

Tubes or not, many of the very experienced amp designers I've talked to on the subject agree that measurements are very important but not the end-all-be-all. They listen. If a design doesn't measure quite as well as another but sounds better to them, then they opt for that latter choice. Of course some amp designers will disagree and always go with what measures best. These amps tend to sound a bit... tight arsed, however. Too flat... not in terms of FR, but in terms of dynamic character. Two dimensional. Musically necrotic. 

 

Yes, there's that dreaded word: musicality. It's been abused so much it has next-to-no-meaning now, but eh. I think either extreme is ridiculous: either making an amp sound like the Dead Sea or making it sound like marshmallow fluff. And once again I'll remind you that I'm not talking about solid state versus tube necessarily, but just different end goal philosophies that can be approximated in either way to varying degrees. There are plenty of solid state amps that sound like marshmallow fluff, and plenty of tube amps that sound like the Dead Sea.

 

It's all just differing methodology. The whole "wire with gain" thing is a load of BS too. There is no neutral amp. "Neutrality" is a moving target. A convenient reference point for relative comparisons.

 

Wow, interesting posts! Tubes having less distortion than transistors goes against everything (admittedly: not much) I've read on that subject. However, distortion should be measurable and as such not subject to audiophile myth. Like the unusually high distortion on those FAD Heaven A/C/S models, that Rin measured and which reminded me of some people saying they sound "tubey" earlier in the thread. So it seems that's based on a misconception (of tube sound). Call me intrigued.

 

As for NwAv's minions, aka the "objectivists" and their ongoing feud with the "subjectivists", I tend to believe that it wouldn't hurt for both sides to look over the fence from time to time. Just like your example of "neutrality", the line of demarcation between science and subjectivity has been a moving target throughout history, and ever so often an idea has started out as an outrageously subjective misbelief at its time and ended up as a major scientific advance a few years (or sometimes centuries) later.

post #9332 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

Tubes are actually more linear than transistors, believe it or not. It's transistors have a tendency toward higher distortion.

 

It's probably better to say that transistors have an advantage in cost/performance up to a particular point on the graph. You can make a good transistor amp with cheap commodity parts, but you can't make a good tube amp with parts of similar quality. Of course you can't make a great amp with cheap, commodity parts, but that's true for either.

 

What pollutes the discussion of quality is that many people like or want that warm, liquid tone that are easier to produce on tube amps. And, on the other hand, decades of guitar amplifier designers using tubes specifically to compress and distort sound has left a bad reputation for tubes in many minds.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

It's all just differing methodology. The whole "wire with gain" thing is a load of BS too. There is no neutral amp. "Neutrality" is a moving target. A convenient reference point for relative comparisons.

 

I prefer "verisimilitude", myself. Neutrality isn't really a goal, it's a measurement (and a usually mis-quantified one, at that). Believability is the intended result.

post #9333 of 21760
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_recording View Post

 

I kinda agree with you on Mari. I definitely like her character (especially her aggression, which seems more bestial and less desperate than Asuka's) but I'm not sure how she fits in. I'm sure that there is a reason for including her - whether that goes beyond merchandising reasons is another thing. ;)

 

I have really mixed feelings about the new angel designs. Some of them are really amazing - I LOVE the new way they did the Ramiel episode and ramped everything up to a level of intensity and epicness. Some of the new angel designs bug me because they don't seem organic; they seem more like contraptions and I don't quite see them as 'alternate versions of humanity' (though perhaps in this canon they aren't).

 

It's hard for me to really render an opinion on Rebuild that isn't coloured by my thoughts about the original series.I watched Eva when I was a kid, and it was a basically a thing where I was drawn in by the giant fighting robots and then left utterly speechless by the slightly soul destroying way the series progresses. Since the soul destroying has only really begun at the end of the second movie, I can't really say whether or not this new revamp has the same kind of depth - and this isn't even considering how I've grown up in that time.

 

Certainly it's made the whole series more accessible. I like it but I don't know how much I'd like it as a straight mecha anime and not the vehicle Anno made to explore his experience with depression and loneliness.

 

I love Kaji's lines in English which were delivered almost incomprehensibly. <3

 

Regarding Mari, I like that she simultaneously seems like both the most stable and also the most unstable of the human pilots. She strikes me as a straight up adrenaline junkie, basically piloting because she likes piloting. Plus she sings cheery songs while murdering the enemy which is fun.

 

Regarding the non-organic designs of some of the angels... I actually like that quite a bit. If you look at some of the ancient depictions of angels, they're actually sometimes rendered as hard geometric shapes or in other fairly odd, non-organic looking ways. It's a way of showing their distance from corporeal life. In Evangelion angels aren't just alternate forms of humanity, but they also reject the confines of human form. Given how heavily the idea of desire and self image plays into the show, one almost gets the sense that angels are given the form of what they want to be, a form that isn't so much determined by biology but rather by imagination.

 

The seventh angel especially is interesting (the clockwork one that walked on the surface of the ocean). Apparently the designers modeled it after one of those drinking bird novelty items... the counter weight device that dips into a glass and "drinks." LOL. My main complaint about it isn't the design so much as how it looked a bit awkward... too CGI-like compared to the more integrated visuals around it.

 

There's no question these movies have less depth than the original series. They're too compressed. The pacing is off. Still, it's an incredibly fun ride so far in my opinion. It really captures the spirit of the seres I think.

post #9334 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardgedee View Post

I prefer "verisimilitude", myself. Neutrality isn't really a goal, it's a measurement (and a usually mis-quantified one, at that). Believability is the intended result.

 

To rethink that a little:

 

Neutrality is a technical goal. Something engineers should strive for and companies should build for. True straight-wire-with-gain is impossible; even in a circuit design that is theoretically perfect, the impossibility of perfect components compromises it, and many amp designs are actually intended specifically to compensate for parts variance, on the principle that perfection is impossible.

 

Verisimilitude is the esthetic goal. If the amp fails to immerse me in music that's designed and produced to be immersive, the amp fails, regardless of how well it measures. (The O2 failed for me unequivocally in that regard).

post #9335 of 21760
Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn is the best Gundam I've ever seen so far. Too bad that it ties in the UC era Gundam which I haven't watched fully yet.
post #9336 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

 

Tubes are actually more linear than transistors, believe it or not. It's transistors have a tendency toward higher distortion. Surprised? I was. Audiophile myths are crazy. You'd think tubes did nothing but introduce junk into an amp's sound if you listened to some of these people railing against them. Good tube amps tend to be more expensive. Some people have a knee jerk reaction when you suggest cost = performance. Of course, there are plenty of solid state amps that are better than a lot of crappy tube amps. And not all expensive tube amps are better; some expensive tube amps SUCK. Like, really suck. But yeah, some of the best amps I've ever heard are expensive tube amps. So people think that must be a sham because they've read some papers online and fancy themselves experts and live in this constructed fantasy where anyone spending more than they do is a fool who has been "tricked" into thinking their tubes are speychul when in fact they're just paying more for amps that are adding junk into the signal. 

 

Plus there's this weird push among some publications to association musicality with highly colored sound. Like, a bloated boomy bass is supposed to be musical or something. I guess.

 

Plus you got the influx of cheap-o tube amps that sound like crap. It's the amp's fault though, NOT the tubes!

 

Tubes or not, many of the very experienced amp designers I've talked to on the subject agree that measurements are very important but not the end-all-be-all. They listen. If a design doesn't measure quite as well as another but sounds better to them, then they opt for that latter choice. Of course some amp designers will disagree and always go with what measures best. These amps tend to sound a bit... tight arsed, however. Too flat... not in terms of FR, but in terms of dynamic character. Two dimensional. Musically necrotic. 

 

Yes, there's that dreaded word: musicality. It's been abused so much it has next-to-no-meaning now, but eh. I think either extreme is ridiculous: either making an amp sound like the Dead Sea or making it sound like marshmallow fluff. And once again I'll remind you that I'm not talking about solid state versus tube necessarily, but just different end goal philosophies that can be approximated in either way to varying degrees. There are plenty of solid state amps that sound like marshmallow fluff, and plenty of tube amps that sound like the Dead Sea.

 

It's all just differing methodology. The whole "wire with gain" thing is a load of BS too. There is no neutral amp. "Neutrality" is a moving target. A convenient reference point for relative comparisons.

 

 

 

So. much. still. to. learn. will. never. kick. this. hobby.

post #9337 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post


So. much. still. to. learn. will. never. kick. this. hobby.

That's part of the fun though
post #9338 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post


That's part of the fun though

 

This is true.

post #9339 of 21760

Saturday morning... time for cartoons.

 


Home of the Liquid Carbon, Liquid Crimson, Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold and
Liquid Lightning headphone amplifiers... and the upcoming Liquid Spark!

post #9340 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenpchi View Post

Saturday morning... time for cartoons.



Sat morning...
.......................,.,,,,,
Time to get my butt to work frown.gif
post #9341 of 21760

4:48 - The Gummi Bears... oh snap, that's my jam right there!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post

Sat morning...
.......................,.,,,,,
Time to get my butt to work frown.gif

 

it pays for more gear!  wink.gif


Home of the Liquid Carbon, Liquid Crimson, Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold and
Liquid Lightning headphone amplifiers... and the upcoming Liquid Spark!

post #9342 of 21760

Hey, this guy is pretty entertaining...

 


Home of the Liquid Carbon, Liquid Crimson, Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold and
Liquid Lightning headphone amplifiers... and the upcoming Liquid Spark!

post #9343 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent One View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenpchi View Post

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's cute that we use "sleepy" to describe gear?  smile.gif

 

With the right parts and presentation, I'll use dreamy... wink.gif

 

Woo hoo!  You're back from a break!  I have yet to experience dreamy gear.  I think that, with some luck, I might have some yummy gear later this year.  But dreamy will take a while.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by a_recording View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenpchi View Post

Speaking of... a_rec, I just saw your AD900X vid and I learned something interesting - you listen to Fischerspooner!  smile.gif

 

Yeah for a while I was totally in love with Fischerspooner! My favourite track is Megacolon, but that's because I'm a bad person. (Actually it's A Kick In the Teeth but Megacolon is a close second.)

 

I don't even know Megacolon.  Where is that from?


Home of the Liquid Carbon, Liquid Crimson, Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold and
Liquid Lightning headphone amplifiers... and the upcoming Liquid Spark!

post #9344 of 21760

Hey, to save myself from reading the ~4k posts since I last was in this thread, I'll just ask: what is everyone listening to at the moment? One of my favorite blogs to dig from has gone belly up, so I'm needing some fresh, funky tunes. Any recommendations? :)

post #9345 of 21760
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardgedee View Post

 

It's probably better to say that transistors have an advantage in cost/performance up to a particular point on the graph. You can make a good transistor amp with cheap commodity parts, but you can't make a good tube amp with parts of similar quality.

 

Would you mind to make an estimate of that particular point?

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