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post #901 of 2124
Quote:

Im sorry but dont understand, why dont you connect OR5-M7 with cat5/6/7. Sorry forma the stupid question. Why do you want to use hdmi ?

HDMI would probably be superior to the RJ45 but the Master 7 does not have an HMDI input.  I use CAT 5 now but Steve N. at Empirical Audio (maker of OR5) told me not to use CATs for the RJ45 I2S and when pressed for cable type said that I should buy their $400 cable.  The confusion on my part comes from lack of a spec defining I2S on the RJ-45 connector and trying to figure out what is best with the limited information.  So maybe Kingwa will respond and set us straight.


Edited by DACLadder - 10/26/13 at 2:08pm
post #902 of 2124

Ok. I get it now...

The fact is that I have asked Kingwa about this issue And he has told that most I2S device are in fact compatible. And suggested to send him the device pin configuration for getting his recommendation about custom cable. Brad of revelation Audio Labs told also that there should not be any problem using the cable. But its 400.... :(

I will keep you updated of Kingwa´s reply.... Thank you!

post #903 of 2124
Quote:
Originally Posted by DACLadder View Post
 Plus the Master 7 uses a short piece of ribbon cable inside to couple the internal RJ-45 signals to the Master 7 circuit board and has its own characteristic impedance.   Connectors, headers, circuit boards have their own impedances. So I wonder what a $500 dollar I2S cable is really going to buy me in performance as it may be swamped by other components on the I2S signal's journey to the Master 7.   And, of course, the goal is to match impedances for maximum energy transfer and no reflected signals that can mess with the signal edges and introduce jitter.  So still searching for the best and affordable cable.

 I think you are right to question whether that cable is worth it.  The cable can't be more than a foot long or probably less than that because you run into issues with length really quickly.  You could buy 1 meter of really good silver wire for less than $75 bucks I imagine and build a silver I2S cable for next to nothing since they are so short.  

 

I'd go with Cat 6  and orient my OR5 to the M7 so that I could use a only 3 inch cable and not lose any sleep about it unless the seller can articulate why such a short cable is worth $400.


Edited by ciphercomplete - 10/26/13 at 2:37pm
post #904 of 2124
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmbarco View Post
 

Ok. I get it now...

The fact is that I have asked Kingwa about this issue And he has told that most I2S device are in fact compatible. And suggested to send him the device pin configuration for getting his recommendation about custom cable. Brad of revelation Audio Labs told also that there should not be any problem using the cable. But its 400.... :(

I will keep you updated of Kingwa´s reply.... Thank you!

Revelation audio's RJ45 cable is way too long at more than 1.5 feet for the shortest.  It would not be superior to a 5 inch cat5 or 6.  I don't how some of these guys get away with this stuff.  Ask him if he can make a 7 inch version :D

post #905 of 2124
This is why I ordered the cable from Steve . As I am sure it will be a shielded cat 6 or 7 cable. I do know for sure . When I rec the hole Shabang on Monday I will examine and post picks as well. The reason I'm pretty shure it is a cat 6 or 7 shielded is my denon I link cable is this and that is a A2s setup just incrypted as why it does not work with anyone else but them ..
So we will see. Also someone hear who mentioned this or5 made his own out of cat 5 .

Al D
post #906 of 2124

Seems of the CAT cables CAT 7 would be best.  The four pairs are individually shielded with an extra rapper of foil.  CAT 5 and 6 are not individually shielded.  I tried another 6" cable today made from a SATA cable.  Cut it in half to double up on the run to give four pairs.   Each pair is individually shielded but not twisted.   Sounds OK and can't tell much difference, if any, compared to the short CAT 5 cable.  Cost of the SATA cable was free (everyone has a spare) and two RJ-45 connectors are less than $1.00.  I'll only charge $100 if you want one!

post #907 of 2124

Silver wire for I2S? $400 digital cables? Denon Link cable- the most "made fun of" cable in the history making fun? You guys are putting us on right? These are digital signal cables right? Do the 0's and 1's get there in a different, bold font?


Edited by tim3320070 - 10/26/13 at 6:49pm
post #908 of 2124

You can find CAT 5 and 6 shieled (ftp) and unshieled (UTP). Higher categories are always shieled. If I could use a straight RJ45 I would use a cat6A / 7 shieled format.

Empirical Audio sells Revelation Audio Labs cable through the web. Ii is the same. And according to specs, it exceeds CAT7 specification. What actually worries me is the quality of terminal connection. I2S is supposed to be higher quality than SPDIF but needs a very high performance in transmition (or a very short path). Otherwise, I think it is better to choose SPDIF/AES.... RAL cable is 0.5m or 1m standard length, but you can order custom length also.

Regarding 0´s and 1´s, using this argument it is hard to understand why do we spend money in a digital interface. It is digital-to-digital, so it should be the same using OR5/Transient or an ebay 30$ interface, but we all know it is simply not true. Digital signal is also a physical signal that can also be disturbed and it also affects SQ, but in a different way if physical carrier is analog data. Transmiting 0´s and 1´s do not solve every problem, it just offers new ones.

post #909 of 2124
Tim your ignorance is really showing here. Cables do matter weather you be leave it or not. And denon I be leave was the first company to use I2S as an external digital connection and it was proprietary to the there equipment , as it would and does not work with others. How about fuses as many hear do believe they matter as well . Add input to the conversation not sarcasm because of your inability to understand.

As for the type of wire I will know shortly. but what really does matter to me after spending all this money to extract the last bit of goodness and if his cables have the magic sauce well I guess I'm trying it..

Al D
post #910 of 2124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRAINBOW View Post

Tim your ignorance is really showing here. Cables do matter weather you be leave it or not. And denon I be leave was the first company to use I2S as an external digital connection and it was proprietary to the there equipment , as it would and does not work with others. How about fuses as many hear do believe they matter as well . Add input to the conversation not sarcasm because of your inability to understand.

As for the type of wire I will know shortly. but what really does matter to me after spending all this money to extract the last bit of goodness and if his cables have the magic sauce well I guess I'm trying it..

Al D

Wait what? Just because he has a difference of opinion on the effectiveness of cables doesn't make anybody ignorant.
post #911 of 2124
Bluejean cables individually test the rj45 cables they make for bandwidth (which is critical as termination of rj45 makes all the difference with jitter). Maybe they can make a custom cable?
post #912 of 2124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim3320070 View Post
 

Silver wire for I2S? $400 digital cables? Denon Link cable- the most "made fun of" cable in the history making fun? You guys are putting us on right? These are digital signal cables right? Do the 0's and 1's get there in a different, bold font?

 

Yeah, I'm not advocating for exotic cables or even slightly expensive ones, just that if they are your thing you can make them for far less than some huckster is willing to sell them to you.  Personally, I would just make a cable out of Cat5/6/7.

 

Cables matter to some people for a reason that escapes me but I won't knock what people want to spend their money on.  But I have a low tolerance for BS and seeing a 1.5 foot IS2 cable that claims to make things sound better is BS.      


Edited by ciphercomplete - 10/27/13 at 7:00am
post #913 of 2124
It is ignorance for this fact. If we judge on something without having it to test or Better yet have no intention of owning it to test how can this not be.
My company does data installs as well as other electrical installations . I have a 6000.00 data analyzer . Why so when I perform my work I can test and give proven report of work . Not just the connection sequence and continuity . I will use this to test the cable for all parameters including frequency specs for the wire used. This is facts I am not being rude but I will not be told from people here who are just reading and not doing. As for cables I do be leave they are snake oil in many aspects. Like USB,s and this cable but given I just spent over 2 thousand on this all out product with the new PSU as well what was another 400 . I'll spend that at dinner tonight. We all spend a fortune on this hobby and I too fall into his category regarding how far to go. This is where I to am ignorant , but at least I'll admit it..

AlD
post #914 of 2124

In digital if you can move data from point A to point B with no error then you can't improve on this.  The I2S data clock moving the data (SCLK) can be jittery but as long as the bits arrive on time at the destination you are golden.  But the whole point for I2S is the sending device provides the DAC clocks used to convert the digital data into analog.  So whatever clocks are used for D-to-A must be preserved for lowest jitter.  The other I2S signals just have to be good enough to send data without error.  I'm not exactly sure which I2S clock is used by the Master 7 for actual digital to analog conversion but this would be the most important clock of the bunch.  So a Kingwa question... which I2S clocks are actually used for D-to-A in the Master 7?  In other words what are the most important I2S signals for lowest jitter?

 

Looking at SPDIF the clock is buried in the single bi-phase mark signal and a PLL is used on the receiving end to recover the clocks.  These PLLs have jitter because they lock within a range - perfect data but jittery clocks.   But on I2S the sending device is providing the clocks and a PLL at the receiving end is not needed.   At least that is the whole point of I2S and why someone would pay for $700 for clock upgrades or a cable that actually improved signal quality.

post #915 of 2124

Well off course you don't have to do what anyone here says.  As long as you make a informed decision about what you are buying namely that the product may or may not work any better than a lower cost item or produce lower quality results than that said item.  But most people, especially those new to the hobby, don't buy things just to see if they work or not.  Do us a favor and post your testing results when you get the cable.  It would be appreciated.  

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