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Audio-Gd Master 7 - Discrete Fully Balanced DAC (PCM1704) - Page 91

post #1351 of 3589
The whole dsd thing is not going away. . And in some instants up sampling is better or at least it sounds that way. But keep in mind when you up sample you increase jitter and this is what you are hearing. It's not better but it changed. . Also by you up sampling you are greatly increasing the amount of storage needed. Now sacd is dsd with a protected layer of copy guard now the dsd we download does not have this. Now most all dsd is not pure as it is converted back to PCM to perform compression ,EQ mixing and what ever.

For my dap,s and the M7 I just convert on the fly with jriver or convert a copy to flac no compression. But there are those that say converting on the fly is sound degrading and of course those that say it's not. Any way we all enjoy our music and I enjoy learning as well.

Al
post #1352 of 3589
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_man View Post
 

I swear pcm converted to 2-5x dsd sounds much better. technically the above post is right. so, how do power cables make a difference lol. if you catch the drift. since when do we go by science around here? I am guessing dsd will go away yet again. I did like sacd better when it came out too. I remember the first time I heard it. I was like, whoa! of course the first time I heard the ml 30.6 I was amazed too. I don't know, I at least like the option. does it hurt any to have it onboard?

 

I'd like to know what exactly, measurement-wise, changes in the sound. I suspect it has to do with the DAC, not the file itself. I wonder how PCM is converted to DSD, technically. Maybe, as a form of conversion to analogue, DSD is nicer, sound-wise, than what a DAC regularly does?

 

Maybe Kingwa could make a version of the NFB-27 that optionally converts PCM to DSD internally? That would be interesting. 

post #1353 of 3589

I don't really know much about this. I can't understand how I think more jitter sounds better if that is the case. I went to great lengths to remove jitter going in. I don't even understand how these dacs manage dsd. the chips are 32/384 or whatever like ess9018 but how do they decode 1 bit 5.6mhz? I have no idea how they do that. i have been trying to figure it out. i suppose the software on the computer does the conversion from pcm to dsd. i think. i would also think this would be using a lot more cpu. this is all something i have no knowledge of other than it works nicely for me.

post #1354 of 3589
First off if you enjoy the music. That's what is really about
And up sampling is a debatible topic. As there is camps on both sides
But the fact is what I stated regardless.
And yes the CPU does the conversion on the fly
The less your DAC does the better. So flac uncompressed or wav
Is best. But flac is better cause of the meta data

Album art and info.

Ifs all Greek till you just keep reading and then it starts to clear up.
Enjoy music first and learn as you go.
The m7 is a really good DAC enjoy it
Al
post #1355 of 3589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

I'd like to know what exactly, measurement-wise, changes in the sound. I suspect it has to do with the DAC, not the file itself. I wonder how PCM is converted to DSD, technically. Maybe, as a form of conversion to analogue, DSD is nicer, sound-wise, than what a DAC regularly does?

 

Maybe Kingwa could make a version of the NFB-27 that optionally converts PCM to DSD internally? That would be interesting. 

 

Probably more with the DAC itself. Consider that the native language of s-d DAC is well, DSD. One less conversion step in the chip from PCM to 1-bit or multi-bit.

 

As far as the DSD to PCM conversions, an ultrasonic filter needs to be applied. Because of the 1-bit switching and noise shaping techniques, there's a bunch of ultrasonic noise inherent in the DSD format starting at 24kHz. At 50kHz it's pretty darn high. Different SACD players or software conversions will take their own approaches to this filter. SACD players will apply this DSD noise filter to the analog output.

 

With JMRC, I actually preferred the most aggressive ultrasonic filter setting. You can also turn it off, but this resulted in the worst SQ.


Edited by purrin - 2/14/14 at 11:23am
post #1356 of 3589
Hi Master 7 users,

I have the Master 7 in my setup feeded by Audio-PCs (JPlay) via a Hiface One DDC and a following Reclocker Cascade of three Mutec MC-3+. A graphical view can be seen at the following link: http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?p=73363#p73363

Now I intend to change the Hiface One since I'm convinced, that this device is the weakest link in the chain. Certainly I could buy a DDC like Audiophilleo AP 1/2 or others in order to improve the chain. But then I got the idea what about the built-in USB unit oft the Master 7, which - as far as I guess - is much better than the Hiface One, especially after the latest firmware and driver update.

So my idea is going from USB output of my PC directly into USB input of Master 7. From there I would like to lead out the SPDIF-Output of the USB-32 unit in order to feed my three Mutec MC-3+ , then feeding back the reclocked SPDIF signal into the SPDIF input of the Master 7.

Could anybody tell me, if this is possible, and if yes, which are the SPDIF-out of the USB-32 unit inside the Master 7.

Every suggestion is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Fujak
post #1357 of 3589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fujak View Post

Hi Master 7 users,

I have the Master 7 in my setup feeded by Audio-PCs (JPlay) via a Hiface One DDC and a following Reclocker Cascade of three Mutec MC-3+. A graphical view can be seen at the following link: http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?p=73363#p73363

Now I intend to change the Hiface One since I'm convinced, that this device is the weakest link in the chain. Certainly I could buy a DDC like Audiophilleo AP 1/2 or others in order to improve the chain. But then I got the idea what about the built-in USB unit oft the Master 7, which - as far as I guess - is much better than the Hiface One, especially after the latest firmware and driver update.

So my idea is going from USB output of my PC directly into USB input of Master 7. From there I would like to lead out the SPDIF-Output of the USB-32 unit in order to feed my three Mutec MC-3+ , then feeding back the reclocked SPDIF signal into the SPDIF input of the Master 7.

Could anybody tell me, if this is possible, and if yes, which are the SPDIF-out of the USB-32 unit inside the Master 7.

Every suggestion is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Fujak

 

That's certainly an interesting setup - I would never have thought of using reclocking devices in series.  I think part of the strength of USB32 in the AudioGD is that it converts straight into I2S very close to the DSP in the Master7 (I think what you are proposing is convert signal to SPDIF and then do all the reclocking, and then convert back from SPDIF to I2S)- but I would definitely be interested to hear what your findings are running the USB 32 through the reclocking machines!

post #1358 of 3589
First off converting again makes no sense and must be bad for the sound second the USB even with the new 2014 is ok but not as good as an offramp or AP1/2 . Now given the ap1/2 is only spidif output it cannot be as good as an offramp.
Where this uses the i2s input more directly to to the dac chip. There are other forms of reclocking out there .
I did a post on here with a whole list of them . I would find it and read it. The reviewer seems to someone in touch with how things sound and I agree with his findings.

Al
post #1359 of 3589
Quote:
 Could anybody tell me, if this is possible, and if yes, which are the SPDIF-out of the USB-32 unit inside the Master 7.

USB32 outputs I2S and terminates to a 5-pin header on the M7 DSP board.

post #1360 of 3589
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaice View Post
 

Has anyone tried one or more of the following USB "conditioners" with the Master 7?

 

Empirical Audio Short Block - http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/short-block

iFi iUSB - http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iUSB.html

Aubisque USB - http://www.ultrafi.biz/aubisque-usb-filter.html

 

I have been digging facts and experiences with these devices and this is what I have found so far:

These devices do not work only as a USB power purifiers / disconnection of the USB power. They solve more complex problems and have positive effects in most systems because they impact the USB data path as well. The technical side is not fully clear to me but I would like to hear some direct experiences with the M7.

 

One new device to the list:

iFi USB iPurifier: http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iPurifier.html

 

I finally bought the Empirical Audio Short Block and the iFi iPurifier. They arrived almost simultaneously and I connected them in the following configuration:

PC>USB cable>iPurifier>Short Block>M7 USB input

 

As you may remember, I had some PC-USB-related noise issues. The noise wasn't audible at my regular volume levels and didn't bother me at all. After connecting these devices between my PC and M7, all noise is gone. I have tried max. volume  levels and there is nothing. This is great but not the end of the story. There are also some positive impacts in the sound area at my standard volume levels. The sound is cleaner with more microdetails. Microdetails are more "readable" and everything sounds more detailed and real now. I don't know which of these devices has the main effect on the positive impacts but they definitely work in my PC-USB-noisy setup. I hope that this info could help someone. I will try to assess these devices individually one day...


Edited by seaice - 2/18/14 at 8:39am
post #1361 of 3589
I have both the imperical and the Ifi USB with the optional cable . Together the ifi is better as it isolates but also adds a battery for dacs that need the USB power to operate .

As the offramp just isolates so some dacs will not work. Hope this helps

Al
post #1362 of 3589
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaice View Post

 

One new device to the list:

iFi USB iPurifier: http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iPurifier.html

 

I finally bought the Empirical Audio Short Block and the iFi iPurifier. They arrived almost simultaneously and I connected them in the following configuration:

PC>USB cable>iPurifier>Short Block>M7 USB input

 

As you may remember, I had some PC-USB-related noise issues. The noise wasn't audible at my regular volume levels and didn't bother me at all. After connecting these devices between my PC and M7, all noise is gone. I have tried max. volume  levels and there is nothing. This is great but not the end of the story. There are also some positive impacts in the sound area at my standard volume levels. The sound is cleaner with more microdetails. Microdetails are more "readable" and everything sounds more detailed and real now. I don't know which of these devices has the main effect on the positive impacts but they definitely work in my PC-USB-noisy setup. I hope that this info could help someone. I will try to assess these devices individually one day...

 



That's interesting news, I'm really looking into the iPurifier and the Ultra-Fi Aubusque USB filters. I still haven't been able to find anyone who's tried both, but I'm going to keep searching~

As for the EA Short-Block and iFi iPurifier, did you try connecting them individually? I saw that you said "I don't know which of these devices has the main effect on the positive impacts", so I'm guessing not, but I'd really love to know for sure. And if you haven't tried them separately or in a different order, could you try? I've really been watching these USB filters for a while and I'd love to hear whatever additional feedback you could tell me.
post #1363 of 3589
Looking at the ifi USB thing. It must be like the
Short block. A copy cat product.
Al
post #1364 of 3589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny-x View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaice View Post
 

 

One new device to the list:

iFi USB iPurifier: http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iPurifier.html

 

I finally bought the Empirical Audio Short Block and the iFi iPurifier. They arrived almost simultaneously and I connected them in the following configuration:

PC>USB cable>iPurifier>Short Block>M7 USB input

 

As you may remember, I had some PC-USB-related noise issues. The noise wasn't audible at my regular volume levels and didn't bother me at all. After connecting these devices between my PC and M7, all noise is gone. I have tried max. volume  levels and there is nothing. This is great but not the end of the story. There are also some positive impacts in the sound area at my standard volume levels. The sound is cleaner with more microdetails. Microdetails are more "readable" and everything sounds more detailed and real now. I don't know which of these devices has the main effect on the positive impacts but they definitely work in my PC-USB-noisy setup. I hope that this info could help someone. I will try to assess these devices individually one day...

 



That's interesting news, I'm really looking into the iPurifier and the Ultra-Fi Aubusque USB filters. I still haven't been able to find anyone who's tried both, but I'm going to keep searching~

As for the EA Short-Block and iFi iPurifier, did you try connecting them individually? I saw that you said "I don't know which of these devices has the main effect on the positive impacts", so I'm guessing not, but I'd really love to know for sure. And if you haven't tried them separately or in a different order, could you try? I've really been watching these USB filters for a while and I'd love to hear whatever additional feedback you could tell me.

 

Too busy now, work deadlines are hurting me and I am hunting them... I plan to test these devices individually but can't promise this any time soon. I have very strict procedure for assessing sound differences and need more time for my evaluations. I do not like to write any nonsense or inaccurate first impressions... Give me weeks at least but do no expect my answer soon.

_________________________________________________________________

And by the way, just to avoid any confusions, iFi has two USB devices of this kind: 

iFi iUSB - http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iUSB.html

iFi USB iPurifier: http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iPurifier.html

 

I have the iPurifier + Empirical Audio Short block.

 

And there is one substantial difference between the iPurifer and Short Block: The Short Block disconnects the USB 5V power, the iPurifier does not.


Edited by seaice - 2/18/14 at 11:24am
post #1365 of 3589
Hi Drez, Alrainbow, DACLadder,

thank you very much for your answers. As far as I have understood you: mission impossible. Internal output of USB-32 is I2S only. Then next step will be: a good DDC.

Best regards
Fujak
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