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post #1336 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRAINBOW View Post

DSD is a format. Meaning the way the music is stored and played back

 

Okay.  So it's a format for the way the music is stored and played back; that's what I was reading too.  I'm just not sure what that really means.  

 

For example, FLAC, MP3 or CDDA are formats for storage of an audio file.  Fine.  Is DSD in the same family?

 

DSD can be a format for storage on a SACD (I don't know if it is, but let's just go with it for arguments sake); meaning that the audio files stored on an SACD are in 'DSD' format.  Fine.

 

When a SACD player plays a SACD, it reads the file (in DSD format) and converts that data into PCM and sends it out over a SPDIF connection (to, say, an external DAC).  The DAC at that point is going to treat the data the way it's going to treat it, regardless of what/where it came from.  IE, if the file was an MP3 and then run though USB, into an OffRamp and out though Coax or from a SACD player out through Coax, provided the bit rate and frequency are the same, the DAC sound be treating the data the same.  I guess my point it, once it hits the DAC, the original storage method is irrelevant (and probably unknown) from a processing stand point.  

 

So, if DSD is a storage format, that should change what format our audio files are, not how out DAC behaves.  And we know that's not the case, so all that is false.  So that means DSD is a different animal than FLAC, MP3 or CDDA and not in the same family.

 

So, then, I would guess that DSD is more akin to PCM (so I guess it is kind of like CDDA above, but not like MP3 or the likes).  I don't know how USB sends an audio signal (is it like PCM, is it more packet based, burst based, or...?) but it would be something standardized.  

 

(Sorry for the long post, but I am getting to my point...)

 

So if DSD is like (from what I can tell) the next generation of PCM, but for USB applications (according to Wiki, that's how it started) would using something like an Offramp on a DSD device negate the need for DSD?  Or, is DSD used over something like SPDIF as well?  And finally, if both cases are true, and one used a current Offramp (non DSD capable) you would negate the benefit of having DSD...  Right?  Finally, does any of this matter? :(

 

Or is DSD completely different than anything I've said above?

 

(And that's why I don't like DAC's.)

post #1337 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciphercomplete View Post
 

 

The USB 32 with new firmware is equal to the Audiophilleo.  I just sold my Audiophilleo with Pure Power about 2 weeks ago after I upgraded the USB32 firmware.  I know there are alot of people who really like the OR5 but I don't think its superiority is that cut and dry.  I have not heard OR5 so I have no idea if I would think it superior to others I've heard.  However after reading tons of comparisons and reviews between the OR5 and the Audiophilleo one thing was constant: people who thought the OR5 was too dark preferred the Audiophilleo, people who do not think the OR5 is dark or think the audiophilleo is bright prefer the OR5.  I know some will disagree but I think its a taste issue and also a system synergy issue and you won't know which you like better until you hear all of them. 

 

The M7 is the best digital source I have heard and that includes some very high regarded cd players eg. Tentlabs CD Player, Onix XCD-50, BAT VKD5 SE,  BMC BDCD1.  I prefered the M7 to these on direct comparion in the rigs of several of my audiophile friends.  

 

If you plan to move to DSD then go in a different direction.  If you want awesome redbook to 192khz sound then get the M7.

 

I've read so many mixed opinions about the USB implementation on the M7.  Some say it's great and others say, well, other.

 

I'm glad you've joined the conversation as I am hoping you can shed some light on my above rambling (because I clearly have no idea what I'm saying).

 

What is switching to DSD really supposed to do?  I mean, what benefit is it suppose to have?  I mean, I know it's supposed to 'sound better' but to what end?  Will a mid level DSD DAC out perform a high-end non DSD DAC?  

 

I don't mean to be inflammatory, I am just trying to get my head around if it is worth the wait.


Edited by bigfatpaulie - 2/13/14 at 7:27am
post #1338 of 3492
Cypher. If I may ask what do you use to listen with . Speakers ,headphones , IEM,s. .?
Just a question not looking to argue . Your statement is clear and as I have both I understand why they are different. I mostly use the AP1/PP with iems that have there own DAC .
Like the UMPP6 or the jh3A/16FP combo. There it makes a big difference in over sound.

Al
post #1339 of 3492
I still own it and plan on keeping it. I have dacs that are more money and are just better . But although it has its short comings it is a euphoric type sound it gives . And with headphones or IEM,s you need that as they can be to reviewing and moves away from tha analog sound . It also presents itself a little laid back and this is a must for headphones and IEM,s as well. As they put you in front of the music , close and ther to much is no good too. I will admit I use a 2700 offramp with it. But it does sound really good without it too. No for speakers it's not as good. Hope this helps. Overall
I like it and given there is so many dacs that do not have the sound like it. I would buy it again. So in the end my vote is buy it as long as it's for headphones and iems. . Now keep in mind my speakers are very upfront and give a lot of detail .

And my ref DAC is much better. But I can still say that DAC is very good.

Al
post #1340 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRAINBOW View Post

I still own it and plan on keeping it. I have dacs that are more money and are just better . But although it has its short comings it is a euphoric type sound it gives . And with headphones or IEM,s you need that as they can be to reviewing and moves away from tha analog sound . It also presents itself a little laid back and this is a must for headphones and IEM,s as well. As they put you in front of the music , close and ther to much is no good too. I will admit I use a 2700 offramp with it. But it does sound really good without it too. No for speakers it's not as good. Hope this helps. Overall
I like it and given there is so many dacs that do not have the sound like it. I would buy it again. So in the end my vote is buy it as long as it's for headphones and iems. . Now keep in mind my speakers are very upfront and give a lot of detail .

And my ref DAC is much better. But I can still say that DAC is very good.

Al

 

I know, I know - You keep telling me to get the M7  :wink_face: 

 

And I probably (most certainly) will.  I'm not a gear flipper so I see this as a long term commitment so I just have to explore.  Plus, this is half the fun, isn't it?

post #1341 of 3492
Biggie. And that is a great name if you live in Brooklyn lol.

You have some ideas mixed together. Dsd and PCM are formats , but within the two there are sub formats that illustrate the resolution and bit depth .
So ex PCM. 24/192. 24 bit depth. 192 is the bandwith. Meaning the lowest to the loudest sound.
Now in most cases 24/96 is way more than enough, but that will start arguments in most forums.
Now dsd is in three subs. 64 sacd or ripped but the limit of the disc is 64. Now dsd also is 128 and 384. Some times called single dsd double and triple dsd.

Now any format or resolution can be made to down sample to,lower resolutions. But when you do you loose the resolution of the sound and cannot bring it back once changed . So when you buy music buy it in the high format keep it and then convert a copy to what you need .

Al
post #1342 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRAINBOW View Post

Cypher. If I may ask what do you use to listen with . Speakers ,headphones , IEM,s. .?
Just a question not looking to argue . Your statement is clear and as I have both I understand why they are different. I mostly use the AP1/PP with iems that have there own DAC .
Like the UMPP6 or the jh3A/16FP combo. There it makes a big difference in over sound.

Al

I own headphones but I have not owned a headphone amp for about 4 years. I listen through speakers. Although my speakers are extremely revealing I have no idea how the M7 sounds through headphones. Its a different experience.
Edited by ciphercomplete - 2/13/14 at 3:58pm
post #1343 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRAINBOW View Post


And my ref DAC is much better. But I can still say that DAC is very good.

Al

Your ref DAC is $9,000 new lol. I hope I didn't sound as if I think the M7 is the greatest DAC ever, I just meant to convey that punches well above its price. But like with all things, one man's favorite is another's least favorite.
Edited by ciphercomplete - 2/13/14 at 4:00pm
post #1344 of 3492
It does not matter who spends more. The m7 is a good dac better than most of the others especially in the price range. The M7 is fantastic for headphones. It is better with headphones than speakers. Speakers review it's short Cummings. And if you can get your hands on an offramp or other ones good like it . It becomes an excellent dac.

Ps my msb is more than 4 times that price. But the M7 is a good dac. Enjoy what ever you buy.

Al
post #1345 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRAINBOW View Post

It does not matter who spends more.

Al

You misunderstood my post.
post #1346 of 3492
I read it agin and I still don't get it. But that is fine it's all good and I did not mean to be a wise guy either.

Al
post #1347 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfatpaulie View Post
 

 

I've read so many mixed opinions about the USB implementation on the M7.  Some say it's great and others say, well, other.

 

I'm glad you've joined the conversation as I am hoping you can shed some light on my above rambling (because I clearly have no idea what I'm saying).

 

What is switching to DSD really supposed to do?  I mean, what benefit is it suppose to have?  I mean, I know it's supposed to 'sound better' but to what end?  Will a mid level DSD DAC out perform a high-end non DSD DAC?  

 

I don't mean to be inflammatory, I am just trying to get my head around if it is worth the wait.

 

As far a DSD, if you use a PC as player, JRMC19 will real-time/playback convert DSD to 24/186 PCM (or even DXD). The M7 will accept 24/186 PCM. A mid-level DSD DAC will not outperform a high-end non DSD DAC.


Edited by purrin - 2/13/14 at 6:50pm
post #1348 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

As far a DSD, if you use a PC as player, JRMC19 will real-time/playback convert DSD to 24/186 PCM (or even DXD). The M7 will accept 24/186 PCM. A mid-level DSD DAC will not outperform a high-end non DSD DAC.
What about the Loki? There are claims that it achieves just that...
post #1349 of 3492
Off-topic about PCM, DSD and the like. (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRAINBOW View Post

Biggie. And that is a great name if you live in Brooklyn lol.

You have some ideas mixed together. Dsd and PCM are formats , but within the two there are sub formats that illustrate the resolution and bit depth .
So ex PCM. 24/192. 24 bit depth. 192 is the bandwith. Meaning the lowest to the loudest sound.
Now in most cases 24/96 is way more than enough, but that will start arguments in most forums.
Now dsd is in three subs. 64 sacd or ripped but the limit of the disc is 64. Now dsd also is 128 and 384. Some times called single dsd double and triple dsd.

Now any format or resolution can be made to down sample to,lower resolutions. But when you do you loose the resolution of the sound and cannot bring it back once changed . So when you buy music buy it in the high format keep it and then convert a copy to what you need .

Al

 

I think I need to continue working on the guide to how digital audio works, which explains all this. 

 

Digital music is stored, in a basic sense, in two different formats: PCM (mostly) and DSD (which SACDs use). 

 

The "16" or "24" bits referred to in PCM audio are the number of bits (either "1" or "0") that can be used to decide the volume of the music at any one moment. Since digital is Base-2 (ie: only "0" or "1"), 16-bit audio has 2 to the power of 16 possible values (65536). 24-bit audio has 16,777,216 possible values. 

 

The 44.1, 88.2, 96, 176.2 or 192 kHz is the number of (thousand) times per second a sample is taken. So regular "CD Audio" refers to audio sampled 44100 times a second, then given one of 65536 possible volume levels.

 

DSD is different in that it only uses 1 bit, but at a much higher sample rate. The funny thing about a DSD digital signal is that if you played it, unconverted through an amp (with a low-pass filter) you actually get music! However, despite the claim of it as a "high-res" file format, it is technically inferior to high-res PCM, though many people might argue that its fairly moot, as most of the argument has to do with sounds beyond 20 kHz and whether they are important when recording instruments.

 

Personally, I'm not going to bother with it. Very few DSD recordings weren't first converted to PCM for mastering and converting back to DSD is destructive from what I understand.

 

FLAC and MP3 are just compressed formats. FLAC and ALAC are lossless (no destruction of data, like zipping a file) and MP3 is lossy, removing the quietest sounds first. New variable bit-rate codecs, however, are excellent at doing this almost unnoticeably. 

post #1350 of 3492

I swear pcm converted to 2-5x dsd sounds much better. technically the above post is right. so, how do power cables make a difference lol. if you catch the drift. since when do we go by science around here? I am guessing dsd will go away yet again. I did like sacd better when it came out too. I remember the first time I heard it. I was like, whoa! of course the first time I heard the ml 30.6 I was amazed too. I don't know, I at least like the option. does it hurt any to have it onboard?

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