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Incredible I feel! MDR V55 - Page 7

post #91 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifihedgehog View Post
 

For what it's worth, here are some graphs of the V55's, DT860's and HD600's (and the HD800's for kicks):

 

01.FRP_SONY_MDR-V55.png

 

 

01.FR_beyerdynamiic_DT860.png

 

01.FR_HD600.png

 

01.FRP_Sennheiser_HD800.png

 

In my opinion, these graphs by Golden Ear aren't quite right. You can try mentally imagining what they should look like using this much-improved graph of the DT860 as your reference:

 

freq.jpg

 

I believe the older Listen Inc. sponsored graphing system at Reviewed.com, from back when the reviewers were at Headphoneinfo.com, had the most accurate charting system out there. As much as I appreciate the incredible contributions Tyll Hertsen has made and continues to make for the community, Innerfidelity's headphone charts look and sound a bit off to me. I hope this was helpful. I absolutely love the DT 860's because I never have had to EQ them and, because they don't need an amplifier, they sound good out of practically anything!

 

I don't really believe in measurements.  I trust me ears, not measurements.  I mean, if it was up to measurements, valve amps would be dead, vinyl would be dead.  But, they both trounce their competition imho (transistor amps and CDs/digital in general).

post #92 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpastern View Post
 

 

I don't really believe in measurements.  I trust me ears, not measurements.  I mean, if it was up to measurements, valve amps would be dead, vinyl would be dead.  But, they both trounce their competition imho (transistor amps and CDs/digital in general).

I respectfully agree to disagree.

 

The mass use of normalization and compression of audio volume to make CD's and mp3's sound better on inferior, common equipment is not a matter of the actual media containing the audio but the way the audio itself is being mixed and mastered. Had time and history played out differently, people would have said the same thing about vinyl if mastering and recording engineers applied these over-production techniques on that type of media. Because of the simple matter of timing and priorities, the professional audio industry decided to use these techniques during the transition from analogue (like tapes, records and eight-tracks) to digital (CDs, and much later the mp3 format). Even so, when used properly, digital audio offers a much wider dynamic range, a more complete frequency response, and perfect channel separation. To get truly this good digital audio, you have to be on the look out for older CDs or better masters or remasters from truly skilled audio engineers (like Steve Hoffman) and be especially wary of the music that comes from the modern media craze for loudness and noise.

 

I have done some deeper investigation about headphones and I have found that the differences between ear canal actual perceived sounds is not as wide a swath as it suggested or professed here, which leaves me the conclusion that knowing what true neutral is for a headphone is not as hard as it sounds. It is in the engineering trapeze act to achieve that level of audio fidelity that makes it a daunting challenge because it is really all about seemingly "defying" the laws of physics and working at the finest grain of accuracy and precision to achieve this almost impossible task. Tyll Hertsens recently commented on a episode of TWiT.tv's "Home Theater Geeks" that the fundamental equation for building a headphone is three to four times as complex as that of speakers due to the many different factors that play into a headphone design that speakers can effectively ignore. Headphone designs have to take into account conditioning the "room" or the cramped, closed-in chamber of only a couple inches that the driver is consigned to, fine tune the driver's mass, geometry and movement for the lowest possible interaction (or distortion and resonance) with the surrounding material millimeters from it, and all the while make the outer appearance of the headphones still look appealing and presentable to the customer.

 

As alluded, the measurements themselves when taken properly will show you what a neutral sound is. Will people like it? Not necessarily. Even the HD800 is not voiced at a purely neutral sound because of the prevailing tastes and trends on the market. It is actually in the most technical sense U-shaped, not in the exaggerated degree Head-Fi'er use to characterize Grados and Ultrasones, but oh-so-slightly to the point that it cannot be perceived, but in a completely controlled and masterful way (2-3 decibels on both ends of the spectrum) to account for the lack of impact headphones have. For me, the HD800's upper midrange is slightly shelved down a tad too much for me to be involving enough for everyday listening. I still recognize it as a superb engineering masterpiece and technical tour-de-force like it is acclaimed to be, having heard it myself and observe it dissect musical tracks into perceivably separate transparencies of sounds and effects with pinpoint accuracy--nothing else I have heard comes remotely close to it. Actually, I prefer a more neutral midrange like the DT860, which, though it doesn't have the pristine detail extraction that the HD800's world class low distortion enables, is for normal listening levels a bit more entertaining listen for me on the whole.

 

I believe being in touch with measurements and their listening preferences can allow users to finally find the final frontier of their personal ultimate audio experience. Equalization can work but it has its limitations because of the sonic character all but the best of headphones drivers inevitably will impute into the sound signal they are given. Educating users about sound, giving them ways to find the target sound that is best for them and then giving them the choices they would want based on their individual preferences is still a very young market which is bound to grow sooner or later. Tyll has mentioned the idea of modular headphones, that is headphones you can self-assemble in a minute or less with parts that fit your preferences. Within the last few years, Beyerdynamic released the Custom One Pro, the first headphone with an adjustable bass port, and I think this is a step in the right direction for giving people what they want. Eventually, higher-end modular, standardized headphone parts and audiophile headphones, with graphs and numbers, should be able to guide everyone's subjective tastes to their perfect headphone. It is already starting to happen with the multitude of variations of custom-made headphones and how-to guides for building headphones using the Fostex T50RP driver. Me? I like headphones with a slight raise in the lower bass and the uppermost treble while retaining a flat-line neutral throughout, which is why I like the DT 860 and I am considering the T90 for the future. Everyone likes different things and I think measurements can, in the right instances, be an effective tool in leading us all to the end goal of having our most favorite things.


Edited by Hifihedgehog - 1/23/15 at 8:44pm
post #93 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifihedgehog View Post
 

I respectfully agree to disagree.

 

The mass use of normalization and compression of audio volume to make CD's and mp3's sound better on inferior, common equipment is not a matter of the actual media containing the audio but the way the audio itself is being mixed and mastered. Had time and history played out differently, people would have said the same thing about vinyl if mastering and recording engineers applied these over-production techniques on that type of media. Because of the simple matter of timing and priorities, the professional audio industry decided to use these techniques during the transition from analogue (like tapes, records and eight-tracks) to digital (CDs, and much later the mp3 format). Even so, when used properly, digital audio offers a much wider dynamic range, a more complete frequency response, and perfect channel separation. To get truly this good digital audio, you have to be on the look out for older CDs or better masters or remasters from truly skilled audio engineers (like Steve Hoffman) and be especially wary of the music that comes from the modern media craze for loudness and noise.

 

I have done some deeper investigation about headphones and I have found that the differences between ear canal actual perceived sounds is not as wide a swath as it suggested or professed here, which leaves me the conclusion that knowing what true neutral is for a headphone is not as hard as it sounds. It is in the engineering trapeze act to achieve that level of audio fidelity that makes it a daunting challenge because it is really all about seemingly "defying" the laws of physics and working at the finest grain of accuracy and precision to achieve this almost impossible task. Tyll Hertsens recently commented on a episode of TWiT.tv's "Home Theater Geeks" that the fundamental equation for building a headphone is three to four times as complex as that of speakers due to the many different factors that play into a headphone design that speakers can effectively ignore. Headphone designs have to take into account conditioning the "room" or the cramped, closed-in chamber of only a couple inches that the driver is consigned to, fine tune the driver's mass, geometry and movement for the lowest possible interaction (or distortion and resonance) with the surrounding material millimeters from it, and all the while make the outer appearance of the headphones still look appealing and presentable to the customer.

 

As alluded, the measurements themselves when taken properly will show you what a neutral sound is. Will people like it? Not necessarily. Even the HD800 is not voiced at a purely neutral sound because of the prevailing tastes and trends on the market. It is actually in the most technical sense U-shaped, not in the exaggerated degree Head-Fi'er use to characterize Grados and Ultrasones, but oh-so-slightly to the point that it cannot be perceived, but in a completely controlled and masterful way (2-3 decibels on both ends of the spectrum) to account for the lack of impact headphones have. For me, the HD800's upper midrange is slightly shelved down a tad too much for me to be involving enough for everyday listening. I still recognize it as a superb engineering masterpiece and technical tour-de-force like it is acclaimed to be, having heard it myself and observe it dissect musical tracks into perceivably separate transparencies of sounds and effects with pinpoint accuracy--nothing else I have heard comes remotely close to it. Actually, I prefer a more neutral midrange like the DT860, which, though it doesn't have the pristine detail extraction that the HD800's world class low distortion enables, is for normal listening levels a bit more entertaining listen for me on the whole.

 

I believe being in touch with measurements and their listening preferences can allow users to finally find the final frontier of their personal ultimate audio experience. Equalization can work but it has its limitations because of the sonic character all but the best of headphones drivers inevitably will impute into the sound signal they are given. Educating users about sound, giving them ways to find the target sound that is best for them and then giving them the choices they would want based on their individual preferences is still a very young market which is bound to grow sooner or later. Tyll has mentioned the idea of modular headphones, that is headphones you can self-assemble in a minute or less with parts that fit your preferences. Within the last few years, Beyerdynamic released the Custom One Pro, the first headphone with an adjustable bass port, and I think this is a step in the right direction for giving people what they want. Eventually, higher-end modular, standardized headphone parts and audiophile headphones, with graphs and numbers, should be able to guide everyone's subjective tastes to their perfect headphone. It is already starting to happen with the multitude of variations of custom-made headphones and how-to guides for building headphones using the Fostex T50RP driver. Me? I like headphones with a slight raise in the lower bass and the uppermost treble while retaining a flat-line neutral throughout, which is why I like the DT 860 and I am considering the T90 for the future. Everyone likes different things and I think measurements can, in the right instances, be an effective tool in leading us all to the end goal of having our most favorite things.

 

You're welcome to disagree.  But it doesn't change my views, and nor will it, that measurements are well, irrelevant.  To each their own.

 

I have quite a few well recorded CDs, that I own on vinyl & CD.  Vinyl wins everytime for me, given my ears, my room, and my system.  I've even started hunting down original CDs from the late 80s/early 90s where appropriate to avoid ****ty remastering that plagues the modern music world.

 

The ear canal does bugger all with headphone sounds imho, it's the pinna.  And they do vary widely from human to human.  Sound should NEVER directly hit the ear canal.  Many audiologists will concur with me on that.  We're heading for a period of mass hearing issues in the next 20-30 years due to the usage of ear buds for portable audio, instead of over the ear headphones.

 

I haven't heard the HD800s, nor do I have any intention of doing so.  Having sampled a few "modern" headphones, I am becoming more and more suspicious that the current SQ levels are terrible.  When 25+ year old headphone technology kills modern headphones, one has to be suspicious.  I don't care about flat frequency response plot charts, or any of that.  It's irrelevant to me.  Hell, I don't get out and measure every single performance of my car, I simply *enjoy* driving it.  Too many audiophiles have some serious issues and need to chill and actually start listening to, and enjoying the music instead.

 

Here endeth my response.

post #94 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpastern View Post
 

 

You're welcome to disagree.  But it doesn't change my views, and nor will it, that measurements are well, irrelevant.  To each their own.

 

I have quite a few well recorded CDs, that I own on vinyl & CD.  Vinyl wins everytime for me, given my ears, my room, and my system.  I've even started hunting down original CDs from the late 80s/early 90s where appropriate to avoid ****ty remastering that plagues the modern music world.

 

The ear canal does bugger all with headphone sounds imho, it's the pinna.  And they do vary widely from human to human.  Sound should NEVER directly hit the ear canal.  Many audiologists will concur with me on that.  We're heading for a period of mass hearing issues in the next 20-30 years due to the usage of ear buds for portable audio, instead of over the ear headphones.

 

I haven't heard the HD800s, nor do I have any intention of doing so.  Having sampled a few "modern" headphones, I am becoming more and more suspicious that the current SQ levels are terrible.  When 25+ year old headphone technology kills modern headphones, one has to be suspicious.  I don't care about flat frequency response plot charts, or any of that.  It's irrelevant to me.  Hell, I don't get out and measure every single performance of my car, I simply *enjoy* driving it.  Too many audiophiles have some serious issues and need to chill and actually start listening to, and enjoying the music instead.

 

Here endeth my response.

Interesting! I realize it doesn't change your views, but it can educate the developing views of those reading. Let me follow up and add some clarifying remarks for those following this side conversation.

 

"Vinyl wins everytime for me, given my ears, my room, and my system." As I emphasized earlier, sound preferences are the deciding factor for listening enjoyment, not graphs. Some people do not like sound to be as bright as it is in real life and others like it even brighter still. I have completely understood and accepted that fact and I continue to do so. People should be able to enjoy music the way that it is most pleasurable for them. However, in the ultimate sense, digital audio, whether CD, FLAC or high bitrate mp3 (>320 kbps) on proper spec equipment, is technically superior in dynamics, frequency response and channel separation to vinyl. Leading audio engineers who have studied the science and art well from both sides know and acknowledge this fact.

 

"The ear canal does bugger all with headphone sounds imho, it's the pinna." Notice that I said "ear canal actual perceived sounds" which means the sound heard at the ear canal, not the mathematical equation that only accounts for the ear canal. The entire ear and face, including the inner and surrounding skin, muscle, fat and bone tissue, play a large part in the sound propagation between point a, the sound source, and point b, the eardrum. With a modern HATS (head and torso system), a flat sound response can be established and used as a reference point quite readily because its physical parts and the minor post-measurement calculations take into account all these things. As for hearing differences from person to person because of differing pinna, like I said earlier, the resulting or perceived sound at the ear canal is very much the same person to person. Only in the cases of hearing damage due to malformations at birth or hearing damage--due to the aging process or accidental throughout life--do the real differences arise. Either so, if a headphone is following a perfect sound curve and if a certain sound is muffled for one person in real life because of hearing damage, that same sound will sound realistic or exactly as it does in real-life to the person when hearing it through the headphones--muffled. Sound science, at its most fundamental level, is black and white: you have an accurate sound or you don't, end of story. In practice, the variations of headphones closer and further from accuracy comes from differing priorities in reaching a certain presentation of that sound, but the fact remains that it can be established through measurement which is closer and which is not.

 

"When 25+ year old headphone technology kills modern headphones, one has to be suspicious." Which old ones? Some retro models follow your description to some degree or another, which I never said was not the case. However, to give a counter viewpoint, I remember one very prominent Head-Fi forumer touted that the recently discontinued Beyerdynamic DT 48 was supposedly far superior in its midrange response to modern headphones. Come to find out, other forumers tried this headphone and found it plagued by distortion, edginess and muddiness even compared to some $10 and $20 headphones like the Sennheiser HD 201 and Koss KSC75. In short, the sound issues were terribly obvious to most users. And yet, a few actually liked. Going back to the truth about preferences, if this brings the person pleasure sonically, they are free to have it. It just is not like what you would be hearing in real life with all the dynamics and energy such real-life sound possesses.

 

"Sound should NEVER directly hit the ear canal.  Many audiologists will concur with me on that." Although you do not believe in measurements as you have established, I believe we both believe in the same thing here, but we are saying it differently. An IEM should be tuned to produce the same effective, measured sound at the eardrum as regular headphone would. If the IEM is tuned that way, it is not being direct--it is reducing the sound frequencies the pinna would have reduced when using a regular headphone. A HATS, which I referred to earlier, has a functional pinna with essentially the same acoustic properties as a real human ear would. Headphones and IEMs recorded on a HATS will show a flat frequency response. Again, I know you do not believe in measurements, but I am sure you would say a vinyl is much better than a crystal radio for most people, am I correct? Properly obtained measurements confirm this fact. Properly obtained measurements also confirm a safe, neutral sound even physical differences exist between neutral IEMs and neutral headphones.

 

To close out this conversation: Just read my profile if you don't believe me when I say I believe in full equality and freedom in the audio world. I encourage there myself, "Agree to disagree. One person might like a piping hot Grado and the other a warm smooth Sennheiser, and both are right," and also, "When it comes down to it, the things we enjoy listening to (music, movies, games) are why we are here to begin with. Headphones are but a means to an end." The point being is we all have some specific sound we like and that is why we all tend to so many different things in this massive, diverse mix of brighter, darker, bassy-er, gentle-er, harsh and smooth sounding headphones. In my opinion, as long as we get something that makes us happy and satisfied, the adventure has been well worth the wear.
 

One thing is for sure and I want to be plain as day when having open conversations like this: I have my opinion, you have yours, we're always perfectly, unresentfully okay with that, and we can share friendly banter about it without ruffled feathers or bad feelings. Know this: Although I respect and look up to him for the huge technical advances he brought to the budget audio world, I deeply do not believe in Voldemort's approach that got that particular user/electrical engineer banned. I believe that if there is something wrong with something, I will not publish the issue to smear someone publicly unless I have done all within my power to see if the company will fix it and I am without recourse--and even then I will do it politely, never rudely. His course of behavior is something I actually thought was quite arrogant and contentious for him to do on his part. I feel educating and informing with kindness and respect will gain someone a lot more friends and supporters than essentially openly publishing "Hey! This company is evil, because they are selling something that doesn't quite do this and they are just pushing out a pretty product to get your money."

 

To reemphasize and stress as much as I humanly can, no audio preference is evil. It is just as much right for someone to like chocolate ice cream as it is for them to like strawberry ice cream and so on, and the same applies for audio enjoyment. Knowing and accepting that will save one from the lamentable and preventable bans I frequently see on users here, even those who have over 1000 posts and seem to begin to believe that mere number has bestowed upon them godhood or something. I am glad for the opportunity we had to talk openly like this, and I hope you continue enjoying your audio experience as much as I have!

 

(I probably have cluttered up this thread too much already. If you have nothing else to add, you can go back to your regular programming, folks!)


Edited by Hifihedgehog - 1/25/15 at 7:47pm
post #95 of 102

Well, my vinyl front end is a Clearaudio Champion level II.  Clearaudio turntables are not reknowned for being "warm" like turntables of all.  They have a closer presentation to CD that most turntables.  I think a lot of vinyl afficianodos have been brainwashed over the years by overly warm and fuzzy turntables that are NOT accurate.  

 

As to frequency response, my Lyra Clavis cartridge goes from 18hz to 60khz.  How high does CD go  ;-)  I'm a firm believer that high frequencies contain a lot of spatial data - we don't know how to really measure it yet, but that's cos our science is immature.  CDs lack this "air" because they are deliberately constricted to 20khz.  And, most CD players roll off well before then.  Everyone knows that CD has unnatural highs that are grating, unless unnaturally rolled off early, and that digital is REAL nasty when it hits overload when recording (unlike analogue tape).  If more modern recordings returned to valve mics and amps and analogue tape, the world would be a better place.  I give CD that it betters in low frequency accuracy, dynamics and channel separation.  That said, I'm not entirely sure that they are that important measurements.  I've heard turntable setups appear more dynamic, have a better bottom end and have better soundstage and instrument placement than any CD player (or SACD player for that matter) that I've heard.  That sort of implies to me that measurements aren't as important as we make them out to be.  I mean, how can something that measures worse sound better?  Humans have this weird fascination and pre-occupation with measurements and it's unhealthy imho.

 

Agreed that the face plays some part in sound wave reflection, but it is the pinna that guides sounds into the ear canal.  My experiences are that people experience sound very much differently, much like people see differently.  No two humans are alike.  That's genetic diversification for you!  hearing loss is dynamic and different for each individual.  I know from experience, as I suffer from a 80% hearing loss at 5khz in my Right ear.  It's not the same for everyone, much as normal undamaged hearing isn't the same for everyone.  Accuracy is a fallacy imho.  Each brain assembles the aural data differently, it's not just the actual ear that comes into the equation.  I think people sometimes seem to forget that the human brain is a very powerful electrical computer.  

 

I'm referring to the Sennheiser HD540 gold references that I own.  I'm absolutely confident that they kill any modern headphones.  Psycho acoustic auto suggestion plays a bit part in humans and hi fi, and to a very detrimental effect imho.  more people play pi$$ing contests with gear and money in this hobby than actually enjoy the music, which is what it REALLY should be all about.  I'm not saying that's you btw, that's just a generalisation!  

 

You seem to value science more than nature, I'm the opposite.  nature has done it all, well before human minds had scientific curiosity.  She knows what she's doing.

 

I wholly agree that this hobby should be about music, and not the gear.  The gear is just an ends to the musical appreciation.  Many of us need to spend more time with live music imho than we currently do (including myself).  And whilst I may disagree with your views, that doesn't mean that I don't respect them.  Each to their own.  Differing views help develop interesting conversations such as this.  Too often, online forums end up in recrimination and arguments and much anger.  They are not healthy places in a lot of cases imho.  I've had my experiences with mods and admins being over zealous and heavy handed, and with favouritism of some users over others.  In fact, I recently told one particular forum admin that I had no further interest in their forum as I believe that freedom of speech was limited by the mods and admin.  yes, some will tell me that a forum is akin to someone's private house.  That might be true, but going to someone's private house doesn't give them the right to limit my freedom of speech.  Sure, they can ask me to leave, and that's cool, but that's not the same as limiting my freedom of speech.  Just don't take away my freedom of speech.  Too many online forums don't know what freedom of speech is, and I have little respect for them.  

 

From a personal and philosophical point of view, companies or business entities exist to make a profit, nothing more, and nothing less.  They care nothing for the consumer, other than that we are a byproduct of a profit.  They only extend certain liberties to we, the consumer because they are legislatively forced to do so.  Many companies are what I'd consider immoral and evil.  People should always be free to voice their opinions.  Anything else is a restrictive society.  

 

But, I'll digress, we've ventured off topic.

 

Cheers and thanks for the interesting conversation, highly enjoyable.

 

Dave

post #96 of 102

Hey guys,

 

Is there any earpad replacement for the Sony V55's? they tend to feel warm after a while and they start to hurt after a good hour. 

 

Are these any good?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Velvet-velour-ear-pads-earpads-Cushion-for-Sony-MDR-V55-V-55-V55BR-headphones-/181580238179?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a47068d63

 

Or the Brainwavz  HM3/HM5 pads ?

post #97 of 102
The brainwavz won't fit, don't even try it. Those in the eBay ad look fine.
post #98 of 102

Oh oke thanks

 

What about some cushions though:

 

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Ear-Pads-Cushion-Replacement-for-Audio-Technica-ATH-WS70-ATH-WS77-Headphone-/321733749751?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4ae8d36bf7

 

the velvet velour ear  pads says they compatiable with ATH WS70's ?

post #99 of 102

Can't say for sure, I do have these headphones and they look like they'll fit. 
 

post #100 of 102

Sweet, might order them then if I can't find any other for that price.

 

U didn't change the earpads urself for the v55's?

 

I just got them and I find them amazing quality for the price just the earpads are horrible.

post #101 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrentz View Post

Sweet, might order them then if I can't find any other for that price.

U didn't change the earpads urself for the v55's?

I just got them and I find them amazing quality for the price just the earpads are horrible.

The ear pads are worthless, I also own the V6 and Z7 so these don't get the same use anymore.

Tho a similar situation is on the V6 which I went on FleaBay and bought some better Chinese ones.
post #102 of 102

Well I just received the cushion earpads from ebay.

 

I'm not sure if im liking it. I can defo. tell there is less bass. I think because the earpads are more bulkier so further away from the ear? 

 

Also they are now over-ear headphones for me. my ears just fit in.

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