iPad with 24 bit files / high storage capacity / portability: bit-perfect configurations that work!

iPad with 24bit/96Khz files / high storage capacity / portability : which configuration works without downsampling?

My goal for 24 bit-perfect portable setup:
iPad with no jailbreak and no DIY hardware mods
Server/player easy to setup and start with at least cover arts and auto play next (gapless not indispensable)
High storage capacity (500GB+)
Internet connection or router not required to work
CCK/USB DAC or dedicated DAC/Amp
All battery powered

iPad has limited storage capacity, which must be addressed for those big 24 bit files.
Apps which play local stored files (stock player or Flac Player for usopported format) are less useful and if you add storage to the dock out you can't output digital files to an external DAC.
REMEMBER: Any point in the chain could downsample data: HW, server software, settings, player and iDevice used all do matter.

For portability of some sort, until now the iPad is the only iDevice (without jailbreak) confirmed working without downsampling 24 bit / 96 Khz files in any point in the chain and only under specific configurations that I'll recap here:

1) Camera Connection Kit (older iPads) or the newer Lighting to USB Camera Adapter.
2) 24 bit USB DACs that don't require a driver to work at 1.1 USB specs and must provide power via USB PORT.
3) USB Hubs battery powered, powered with portable USB battery chargers or iPad powered (20mA MAX), if the USB DAC works driverless but do not provide power via USB port.
4) Specific server/iPad player combos. For portability everywhere we need a portable battery powered high storage wi-fi UPnP/DLNA server (500GB+) with bundled software player (or able to use a third-party app) capable to stream 24 bit-perfect data. For portability at home there are more choices, that I'll recap later.


Points 1), 2), 3) are potentially addressable with a dedicated DAC for iPad similar to:

Cypher Labs AlgoRhythm Solo (DAC only) officially supports 24 bit for iPad only (see page 7 of the FAQ not the manual), but needs to be confirmed by users, testing its own digital coax out to an external dac able to display bit/samples effectively received.
CEntrance HiFi-M8 (DAC/Amp combo) officially supports up to 192Khz, but I think only 96Khz for iPad, without digital out can't be tested with an external DAC able to display bit/freq.
Sony PHA-1 (DAC/Amp combo) officially supports up to 24/96, but without digital out can't be tested with an external DAC able to display bit/freq.


Point 1): without a dedicated iPad DAC you need a CCK or the newer LtUSBCA to use USB digital audio out from iPad.
For Point 2) be careful that not any powered USB DAC/Amp works, since we have two problems to solve, it needs to:
a) work driverless at USB 1.1 specs (= up to 24bit/96Khz).
b) the USB PORT of the DAC must provide power, if not a USB HUB is always needed (see Point 3).
Since latest iOS iPad always checks for power req of the device asking data (USB DAC) indipendently if it's powered or not.
Example 1: the M2Tech Young DAC is a powered desktop USB DAC, but it works only with drivers, so it won't work with iPad/CCK USB out.
Example 2: the iBasso D7 portable USB DAC/Amp isn't powered and iPad is unable to, but works driverless at USB 1.1 specs and with a USB charger and USB Hub it works.
Example 3: the Antelope Zodiac is a powered desktop DAC, it will works up to 384Khz with drivers, but also up to 96Khz driverless and it has a powered USB port, so it'll works without the need for a USB Hub.
Note that some USB DACs that works are unable to process any sample rates up to their max supported (96 max but no 88.2 or 192 max but no 176.4 Khz support), it depends on the USB chip and number of clocks installed.
I'll list here any portable battery powered 24 bit USB DAC/Amp (none so far) or unpowered but working (see point 3 for details) up to at least 96 Khz and which are not dedicated to iDevice only:

iBasso D7 up to 192Khz but not 176.4Khz + point 3).
CEntrance DacPort up to 96 Khz + point 3).
Audioquest Dragonfly up to 96 Khz + point 3)


For Point 3), if the DAC USB port doesn't provide power, we need a USB Hub battery powered, powered by USB battery chargers or directly powered from iPad/CCK up to 20mA MAX, the last one is now avaiable and the best solution.
Most USB chargers are not Hubs, they're power only; a few are able to pass data only via USB OUT (not via mini USB IN used to recharge) but at least two USB OUT are needed (1x iPad, 1x USB DAC) making them real Hubs.
The old solution to use a USB Y cable (one of the three ends is power only) to provide power to the USB DAC doesn't work anymore, it'll not pass iPad power check of the device asking data (USB DAC).
Only a USB Hubs in the middle do the trick to pass the power check and activate USB digital out from the iPad: if the USB Hub it's powered any USB port will provide power; if the USB Hub it's unpowered it must work at 20mA MAX to be powered directly from iPad (like Unitek USB Hub cable).
I'll update the list here of USB Hubs battery powered (or USB chargers with at least two USB OUT) or directly powered from iPad/CCK up to 20mA MAX which are the most interesting:

Unitek USB cable with Hub: powered directly from iPad/CCK USB out, is avaiable with different connectors to USB DACs (USB female, male mini USB and male micro USB) the male USB-A connector must be plugged to iPad/CCK.
Thanks to whodiini for suggesting this USB cable + Hub.
The US eBay link is http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-90-degree-angled-male-to-2-female-extension-data-hub-rainbow-color-cable-/110855033353?pt=US_Video_Game_Cables_Adapters&hash=item19cf799209. If you are in eBay Italy just search "prolunga USB HUB" and you'll find plenty.
Also check seeteeyou post #85 at page 6 in this thread for additional links to various types.
On Lite H420B: 4 rechargeable batteries that you can change/add at will (NOT WORKING RELIABLY).
D-Tech solar/battery powerd USB Hub (4 USB, 1 mini USB): solar power not capable to feed USB DAC/Amp, battery last 1 hour max.
Tekkeon MP1860A (2 USB OUT, 1 mini USB IN) USB charger + data pass (still to be confirmed).


For Point 4) and portability everywhere we need a portable battery powered high storage wi-fi UPnP/DLNA NAS (500GB+) with bundled server software and player (or able to use a third-party app) capable to stream 24 bit-perfect data.
Seagate GoFlex Satellite works with bundled software, it does not transcode/convert files and is able to stream any files the device supports or files supported by third-party apps like 8player. It has some DLNA capability (but not fully certified).
Buffalo MiniStation Air (500 GB) not yet released and incomplete infos, will come with its iOS dedicated app.
Patriot Gauntled Node (hard disk not included, you can choose storage capacity), is confirmed not working bit-perfect with bundled software (zzffnn reported working with SAMBA streaming which, even if bit-perfect possible, is rouled out=long start up time, too long loading each file, no cover art, no background play, no browsing while play,...).
I'll update the list here:

Seagate GoFlex Satellite (500GB, latest FW can use internet while streaming)


For Point 4) and portability at home we have more choices since there are lots of server software avaiable built-in a NAS or a computer system.
My favourites are:
a) Logitech Media Server + iPeng Player (audio only. In-app purchase needed, no need to have a Logitech device).
b) Twonky Media Server or any similar DLNA/UPnP server + 8player.
c) iTunes Home Sharing + stock player (audio/video but only for officially supported iPad formats).
All setups are tested using external DAC able to display bit/freq received and which does not resample incoming data.

iTHS/stock iPad player isn't a good solution: limited formats support and a really bad interface.

For music only, LMS/iPeng is the best configs right now: great sound quality, FLAC support (no need to convert files neither in the server), cover arts in any directory, better browser organization and faster interface,... Sound quality differences are not strange since any software player do something in a different way (JRiver, Foobar, WMP, iTunes, JPlay,...): bits are not just bits in digital audio, "time" matter a lot.
BUT iPeng officially will never support UPnP/DLNA and LMS is not installed in any portable battery powered wi-fi server.

The solution for UPnP/DLNA servers streaming 24 bit-perfect data with support for all audio/video formats is to use 8player. Don't bother with any other app since until now most won't work bit-perfect, have bad file support and miss fundamental features (background play, play while browsing library, play on the fly, auto play next, cover arts,...). You can use 8player with the Seagate GoFlex Satellite (UPnP/DLNA wi-fi battery powered server) for audio/video portability everywhere. But I'm still unsure if FLACs are bit-perfect, since the displays stick with last ALAC played regardles FLACs bit/freq played.
A solution at home is to instruct the server to transcode FLACs to WAV and you've a bit-perfect setup without converting FLAC files.
Remember, most UPnP/DLNA iPad players won't work at 24 bit-perfect audio data:
PlugPlayer or AceMusic players for example always downsample regardless of wi-fi type, streaming server settings and configs used.
I'll update the list here for any UPnP/DLNA iPad player working 24 bit-perfect and have most fundamental features:
8player (even if not transcoded in server, FLACs play but still unsure if bit-perfect)


Other iDevices (without jailbreak) are generally limited to a max official support of 24 bit / 48 Khz, which could be fine, but without a CCK, you need a desktop digital dock which is not portable neither at home or a dedicated iDevice DAC/Amp.
iTHS/stock Apple player is limited to 16 bit for iPhone/iPod touch.
LMS/iPeng officially support 24/48 for iPhone/iPod Touch, but needs to be confirmed.
Cypher Labs AR Solo supports 24 bit for iPad only, but could works, a direct test needed from its digital coax out.
Sony HPA-1 supports up to 24/96 but it's uncertain if it's for iPad only and without a digital out it's impossible to check.
Fostex HP-P1 was potentially a good choice (32 bit DAC/Amp combo) but it's limited at 16/48 and iPad not even supported (even if reported working at 16 bit).
iPod Classic 160GB (without wi-fi and third-party apps) works with 24 bit / 48 Khz files only in the sense that it'll be able to play them but it will always downsample to 16 bit before reaching the DAC section.
VentureCraft Go-DAP 4.0 will always downsample to 48Khz (thanks to AnakChan for reporting).
I'll update any possible portable 24 bit solution for other iDevices here:
(none confirmed)


I know iPad + CCK + USB Hub + USB DAC/Amp + mobile storage wi-fi isn't really pocketable for jogging, but at least is a transportable 24 bit system with a normal iPad/notebook bag.

iPad, Seagate GoFlex Satellite, iBasso D7, B&W P5 headphones and all cables/adapters fits inside my iPad bag.
The cable connecting the USB charger to USB Hub and USB DAC, is an USB Y split cable with the power only end versus the charger.
Use any portable USB charger with the Unitek USB Hub cable to have a very portable config that last as much as the USB charger allows.



Last thing to note: Power direction do matter. DO NOT use a USB male/USB male cable to connect the USB charger to the USB cable Hub (picture below) since the batteries do not last as much as having an USB Y split cable with the power only end attached to the USB charger (picture above).
Maybe in the wrong method the charger feed power to the USB Hub cable and iPad too, the result is less batteries duration.
Supposedly in the right method the USB Hub cable is low power enough to be feeded by iPad itself and the charger is reserved to USB DAC only so batteries last longer.


Edited by Thraex - 5/1/13 at 6:25am

Thank you so much for that!

I've read the app details, with an in-app purchase it's clearly stated: "iPhone/iPad support up to 24 bit / 48 Khz, iPad with CCK up to 24 bit / 96 Khz"!

 

I'll buy it right now and report back when I figure out how to configure real 24 bit streaming, checked with an external DAC which displays real bit/freq received.

Thanks so much again saeyedoc, it not just works, it's a big upgrade in many aspects!!!

 

It's very important to finally be able to avoid ALACs given most downloadable high res files are FLACs, you don't need to convert them anymore just to use iTunes Home Sharing.

Another plus is the interface, much better than the stock iPad music player which needs Home Sharing to be activated any time you open it, has a terrible organization of files for browsing and that little interface on top is frustrating even for volume changing and a little finger.

But the most surprising thing is the amazing sound quality, immediately apparent at first listen compared to same ALAC files with iTune Home Sharing (more detailed, smooth, dynamic, more space and better bass definition), 16/44 files sound better too.

It's not strange given that some software player sound better than others, but I'm excited I've upgraded the sound too this way.

 

Tested with Logitech Media Server and iPad/CCK checked with external DAC up to 24 / 96.

I've not any Logitech device so it's indipendent from owning one.

To use it is very simple, install LMS, buy first iPeng app and then an in-app additional purchase installs also the needed player. Simple and easy settings to configure, in a couple of minutes you're done.

 

iPod Classic can't use iPeng or Wi-fi, the only solution for 24/48 could be with a CLAS, but officially it supports only iPad at 24 bit. Only a direct test could confirm it definitely.

iPeng officially supports 24 / 48 for iPod Touch and iPhone, and I've no doubt now that it'll works, but without a CCK the test could be done only using a dock able to digitally pass 24 bit to external DACs which I have not and doubt any digital dock can do it (Wadia won't work). Anyone could share some light upon that?

 

iPeng + LMS confirms that there are alternatives to iTunes Home Sharing streaming software, so we can begin to hope that some mobile storage wi-fi devices are able to stream bit-perfect 24 bit files without downsampling.

 

Anyone could test Seagate GoFlex Satellite or there's any other battery powered alternative to try?

Edited by Thraex - 9/2/12 at 2:49am

Thanks saeyedoc, that's very interesting for testing iPod/iPhone at 24 bit but not really portable.

Is there any similar but more portable battery powered digital dock?

Thanks you so much AnakChan for taking your time to do those and future tests.

 

I must admit that I've behaved wrongly since I was really upset (after spendig a lot of time searching infos everywhere) and still very surprised that nobody cares about primary source quality (24 bit files) with iDevices, but there are any kind of discussions about sound quality changing analog/digital cables, LODs, amps, headphones...and frustrated when I've decided to kick in to focus the target, to my specific question a lot of replies directed to me introduce any kind of arguments and confusion without any specific answer.

Then sayedoc give me such a great info and I was so excited that I've loose my control and shouted again, for joy this time.

I was excited too reading your post, but I've controlled myself...

 

Back to the target:

I've not specified that I'd like to roule out jailbroken iDevices for a lot of reasons (iOS updates, jailbreak updates, warranty, support and updates of third party software/hardware, easy operations,..).

So for 24 bit on iPods/iPhones we need to find a portable digital battery powered dock (similar to Pure i-20) or try CLAS or similar DACs (HP-P1 was reported not functioning with Flac player and 24 bit, but I'm still not sure which version of app and which iOS was used, so still possible).

 

PS I'll update asap the OT when new infos are reported accurately.

Edited by Thraex - 9/2/12 at 8:34am

Thanks AnakChan,

 

The setup do matter for me: iDevices with no jailbreak, portability of some sort (smallest setup possible) and high storage capacity.

 

I know jailbreak open up a lot of possibilities, it's a clever software and I've used it myself during last two years (buying Cydia apps for BT mouse, iFile, downloadable files,...), but I'm tired of waiting a new jailbreak when an iOS upgrade is avaiable which opens up its own features, it requires more work to operate (even if it's not that difficult), add warranty support for peace of mind (no need to restore before sending to Apple store).

I know that you can disagree, but my whish list is a not jailbreaked iDevice.

Since it is possible to achieve my goal that way, I'll keep that direction.

I've started reading that thread too but I've thought the jailbreak was necessary, so abandonet it, if I'm wrong please let me know.

 

I must add that I'd like to roule out even hardware mods, there are plenty of those, it is very difficult to keep up and update all the possibilities in a single thread.

I think my whish list already needs a lot of work to keep updated.

 

My portable dream theorically possible right now:

iDevice (no jailbreaked) at 24/192 since I have a few of those files (24/48 with iPad Classic 160GB acceptable given its good storage capacity and small size).

Battery powered single unit DAC/Amp up to 24/192 without external CCK or USB powered Hub (HP-P1 was potentially already here but not reported working yet).

Portable storage wi-fi device with 500GB minimum (GoFlex Satellite could works with the right streaming software and app) since iDevices actually are really limited for high res storage.

Edited by Thraex - 9/2/12 at 8:27am

I've re-elaborated the OT with (I think) a more clear structure to focus the points to address, I've also created a list (but it just started) of any device in each configuration reported accurately to works at 24 bits.

Please take time to read it again and help me to complete it as accurately as possible, specially if there are errors and to speed up the number of devices to add to those lists.

 

I'll update the OT asap new infos are reported in the thread or I'll discover more.

 

Thank you very much for your time and help.

Edited by Thraex - 9/2/12 at 5:00pm

I've high hopes for the Seagate GoFlex Satellite http://www.seagate.com/external-hard-drives/portable-hard-drives/wireless/seagate-satellite/ sice I've read carefully its manual, faq and other infos. The most intersting parts are:

In the manual it's clearly stated it does not transcode (convert) files but is able to stream any files the device supports or files supported by third-party apps.

In the FAQ it's stated it has some DLNA capability (but not fully certified), AirPlay it's not yet supported, but some third-party applications are capable of streaming files from the browser interface or DLNA connection and playing that via AirPlay.

If it doesn't transcode but decode files using the built in iPad palyer it should works at least with ALAC/AIFF, if it uses the player inside its dedicated app it'll probably downsample, it's still possible to use third-party apps but I'm uncertain which and how to do it.

However, even if it's not currently possible, for sure Seagate can do a simple software update to allow 24 bit streaming with in built player.

I'm very near to buy it just to find out if it's capable right now, and I'm experimentig with iPeng and DLNA servers to check if it's possible to bypass LMS.

 

Anyone has a Seagate GoFlex Satellite to experiment or know how to use third-party apps capable of 24 bit streaming?

Edited by Thraex - 9/5/12 at 5:14am

Just received confirmation from Fostex:

 

"Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email to our website.

The HP-P1's S/PDIF just outputs what it receives from an iPod. The
rate varies depending on the iPod, but it's either of 16bit / 32Hz -
44.1Hz - 48Hz. This is the specification of iPod.

Please note the HP-P1 does not comply with iPad."

 

iPad not supported it's strange, but it's rouled out for 24 bits. OT updated.