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iPad iPhone bit-perfect wi-fi streaming 24bit or DSD files / high storage capacity / portability - Page 9

post #121 of 232
Thread Starter 
I’ve received the iDSD yesterday, but I’ve a couple of problems when using USB PC Windows 7 and JRiver or Foobar players.
 
1) It doesn’t light in Cyan color when it receives 176.4/192Khz 24bit files, but remain in Green like it’s receiving 44/48Khz 16 bit (88.2/96Khz files are OK=Yellow)
2) I’ve tried charging it for 10 hours but the light remain Blue and does not turn off like when fully charged (as described in instructions manual).
 

Could you please try my setup attached to PC, not iDevices, and report your results?

 
Thank you very much.
post #122 of 232

I don't have an iDSD but a Dacmagic XS on my PC. I need USB 2 mode for the DACmagic and to install drivers before it will accept and switch to 24/192 as indicated by a blue LED on the DACmagic. Could be the case with the iDSD.

 

Unfortunately the DACmagic won't work in iDevices.

post #123 of 232

Is it certain that the Ipad with CCK running IOS 7 can send out 24/192? I really doubt it.

 

I have a Fiio E18 attached to the CCK on my Ipad 3 with IOS7. The E18 can do 24/96 max.

Still a 24/192 file plays in iPeng when streaming from LMS and I can hear it on my headphones.

 

 

When I try the same on the E18 attached to my laptop, foobar gives an error message:

 

Unrecoverable playback error: Unsupported stream format: 192000 Hz / 24-bit / 2 channels.

 

It plays fine on a DACmagic XS on the same laptop.

 

I think that on the iPad the file gets downsampled but to what I don't know.

post #124 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by dikkiedirk View Post
 

In addition on the 24/192 subject. I got info from the developer that iPeng DOES NOT handle 24/192 because of IOS7 capabilities.

I got the following answer when I asked about updating to iPeng 7.

 

iPeng does handle 24/96 natively but not 24/192, that's beyond iOS' caoabilities and needs to be downsampled on the server side.

Whether it plays unaltered through USB depends on your USB hardware. Obviously, the DAC has to support 96 kHz, 24 Bit playback.

In addition, only iPhones from iPhone 5 and iPads support 96 kHz sample rate, all other devices will downsample the audio to 48 kHz (iOS does that, not iPeng).

On iPads without Lightning connector you need to use the Camera Connection Kit for this to work, all other docks or adaptors will make iOS resample the audio to 48 kHz.

On devices with Lightning connector, you need to use a dock or connector that explicitly supports the Lightning connector or iOS will downsample to 48 kHz.

I believe CCK will work here, too, but haven't tested it myself. Here is a detailed article on the High-Res playback in iPeng although it precedes iOS 7.

 

http://penguinlovesmusic.de/2012/08/14/ipeng-goes-audiophile/

 

Can anyone confirm this? Or will IOS7 and iPeng upto version 1.4.16 still send 24/192 through CCKs USB port?

~~Got a reply on this from iPeng development:

 

~apart from the obvious question what all this ultra-high frequency stuff should be good for (definitely not sound quality, this has to add tremendous noise and for what?

Adding frequencies 10 time higher than the highest audible ones...) and the question how stable a stream requiring twice the bandwidth of an HD video stream will be over WiFi I would like to know where these user reports come from.

 

What player App would they have been played with? I'm pretty sure they are a myth, people probably don't know what they are measuring (something pretty common in the audiophile community). Your iPad definitely doesn't support more than 96 kHz, at least that's what the Apple engineers writing the drivers and the audio engine tell me and I trust them, they usually know what they are doing.

 

It's certainly possible to play 384 kHz files, they will just get downsampled, either in the App or at latest at the OS level (I am not even sure iOS supports these high sample rates at all, I somehow think it tops out at 192 kHz even on the input side, but I'm not sure here).

 

> Is it IOS7, iPeng or hardware limitation i.e. CCK?

It's iOS. Hardware limitations are a relative thing. USB will probably be able to do more but system load even at 96 kHz is significant, 384 kHz is unlikely to create a stable output stream and block a lot of resources on the device impacting other operations.

Apple doesn't do things like that. Even if the actual stream is passed through unaltered, there are a lot of system parameters and mixers which would have to be tuned to the same sample rate. iOS has a huge stack of rules audio sources and audio manipulation logic that's not turned off even if unused because the OS can't know in advance that it's not going to be used.

 

That's probably why they limited it. Pre-iOS 7 only the iPad with CCK could do 24/96 at all, all other devices where limited to 24/48.

Now iPhones with Lightning connector can do 24/96, too, but only with appropriate docks and I only recently have seen the very first ones that support it.

 

Best, Joerg

 

According to him higher than 24/96 is a no-go on any ipad. It rules out iPeng/LMS for streaming more than 24/96 and probably other software configurations?

Or he isn't telling the whole story.

 

 

And...

 

~> 192 kHz isn't an audible frequency, neither is 96 kHz, these are both samplerates. Both influnce the accuracy of the resulting LF-signal as does the 24 or 16 bit bitdepth.

No, they don't. I know some vendors tell you because they want to sell expensive equipment but it's just simply not true. 24 Bit can add some resolution, although even 16 bit exceed the SNR of all DACs or ADCs available today but frequencies beyond 44.1 add NO information whatsoever to the audible frequencies.

 

People who tell you something else have not understood how audio sampling works. The main argument for using higher sample rates is that equipment can be better tuned for these low frequencies, especially filters who by principal have a limited frequency response but all of this can usually be accomplished by simple upsampling in the DAC itself, there is no real reason to use higher sample rates for data storage or transmission.

 

I recommend this for a deeper understanding:

https://www.xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html >

 

FLAC player and AmpliFlac can send out upto 24/192 signals but can not stream from another server.

They can play these files, they can not output this through USB.

Even if the USB output might be 192kHz (which I doubt) iOS will internally process the signal downsampled to 96 kHz.

 

> A true 1080p video needs more bandwith than a 24/192 audio signal.

Yes, but not as at 24/384 kHz audio signal.

 

~I don't know whether this solution maybe just transfers data as file or through some other proprietary network protocol to the DAC, which is of course possible, but you definitely can not use the iPad's own audio processing for that. I trust the guy who wrote it as to that.

 

So, who is fooling who?


Edited by dikkiedirk - 1/15/14 at 7:46am
post #125 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraex View Post
 
I’ve received the iDSD yesterday, but I’ve a couple of problems when using USB PC Windows 7 and JRiver or Foobar players.
 
1) It doesn’t light in Cyan color when it receives 176.4/192Khz 24bit files, but remain in Green like it’s receiving 44/48Khz 16 bit (88.2/96Khz files are OK=Yellow)
2) I’ve tried charging it for 10 hours but the light remain Blue and does not turn off like when fully charged (as described in instructions manual).
 

Could you please try my setup attached to PC, not iDevices, and report your results?

 
Thank you very much.


I am sorry I can't help in this one, as I don't have a Windows PC for personal use where I can perform tests.

 

I have confirmed positive results for PCM and DSD, all frequencies for:

1.  Mac Mini running Audirvana

2.  iPad 3 with 30pin CCK connector

3.  iPhone5 with Lightning to USB CCK connector

post #126 of 232
Thread Starter 

I've reinstalled drivers again and now it works.

I'll update the OT soon since with iDSD isn't necessary a USB Hub anymore, neither the Unitech cable.


Edited by Thraex - 1/17/14 at 5:20pm
post #127 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraex View Post
 

I've reinstalled drivers again and now it works.

I'll update the OT soon since with iDSD isn't necessary a USB Hub anymore, neither the Unitech cable.


That's good news that you have been able to certify compatibility with Windows!   How did you like the sound?  I'm really loving my iFi iDSD, it's such a versatile and portable little product!


Edited by ticos442 - 1/17/14 at 6:49pm
post #128 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraex View Post
 

I've reinstalled drivers again and now it works.

I'll update the OT soon since with iDSD isn't necessary a USB Hub anymore, neither the Unitech cable.

Drivers for the iDSD? What equipment do you have, like headphone and speakers, that you indeed can hear these differences?

 

I have taken my laptop and Cambridge dacmagic xs to a local shop and had a listening session on naim and Cambridge amps and Focal and B&W That big frige model 801s??

 

And on some HD800 and STAX electrostatic headphones. Difference between 16/44 and 24/192 were clear. but hard to describe. Room, placement, small background sounds, but most of all dynamics. Between 24/96 and 24/192 it was even harder if at all.

post #129 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ticos442 View Post
 


That's good news that you have been able to certify compatibility with Windows!   How did you like the sound?  I'm really loving my iFi iDSD, it's such a versatile and portable little product!


I really like the sound of iDSD, more precise and detailed than iBasso D7 but still smooth and easy listening.

It's also more powerful, so it can drive more difficult loads, but with very sensible phones it could limit the use of the potentiometer at the very beginning, in that zone it's not very precise and cannot fine tune the lowest levels.

Another aspect to consider is its analogue RCA out which is variable, so it could be used as a preamp, but I doubt its pre section is better than my Naim setup, or could be used at max volume attached to a preamp which is not a purist approach. I'd have preferred a fixed analogue RCA out.

However this two point of criticism could be instead advatgages in specific setups and even in my case I feel totaly satisfied with a product full of cool features, compatibility and versability unmatched and an overall high quality feeling.


Edited by Thraex - 1/18/14 at 4:55am
post #130 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dikkiedirk View Post
 

Drivers for the iDSD? What equipment do you have, like headphone and speakers, that you indeed can hear these differences?

 

I have taken my laptop and Cambridge dacmagic xs to a local shop and had a listening session on naim and Cambridge amps and Focal and B&W That big frige model 801s??

 

And on some HD800 and STAX electrostatic headphones. Difference between 16/44 and 24/192 were clear. but hard to describe. Room, placement, small background sounds, but most of all dynamics. Between 24/96 and 24/192 it was even harder if at all.


I use Windows 7 so drivers are necessary to use it.

post #131 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by ticos442 View Post
 


I got the iFi iDSD today and performed the tests.

 

1.  Works perfectly just connecting the iDSD to the iPad using CCK

2.  No need for Powered Hub at all

3.  The iDSD has a led light with colors that show the specific frequency, similar to the Dragonfly.  It has different lights for 1X (44.1, 48), 2X (88.2, 96) and 4X (176.4, 192), as well as different colors for DSD content at different frequencies:  DXD 353/384Mhz, DSD 2.8/3.1Mhz and DSD 5.6/6.2 MHz

4.  I played content in all different formats and frequencies above in my iPad and got the right results - bit perfect every time.  Used the FLAC app for PCM content and the Onkyo HF Player for DSD content

 

I'm pretty astonished about the sound quality as well, but I'll do some burn-in of the unit this weekend to see if opens further.  I'll do comparisons against the Explorer later on, but so far this little technology marvel will be my travel companion as it does not require the USB Powered Hub as it has its own internal battery, supposed to last 10 hours.

 

Simply amazing for its price!


Would it work when using 8player for streaming from a dlna server? Or from LMS?


Edited by dikkiedirk - 1/18/14 at 2:01pm
post #132 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by dikkiedirk View Post
 


Would it work when using 8player for streaming from a dlna server? Or from LMS?

For PCM content only (not DSD), I have successfully used 8Player from the Seagate Wireless Plus server.  This works perfectly well all the way up to 24/192 content.   I have not found yet an Apple player app that supports DSD content while streaming from a server.

post #133 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraex View Post
 


I really like the sound of iDSD, more precise and detailed than iBasso D7 but still smooth and easy listening.

It's also more powerful, so it can drive more difficult loads, but with very sensible phones it could limit the use of the potentiometer at the very beginning, in that zone it's not very precise and cannot fine tune the lowest levels.

Another aspect to consider is its analogue RCA out which is variable, so it could be used as a preamp, but I doubt its pre section is better than my Naim setup, or could be used at max volume attached to a preamp which is not a purist approach. I'd have preferred a fixed analogue RCA out.

However this two point of criticism could be instead advatgages in specific setups and even in my case I feel totaly satisfied with a product full of cool features, compatibility and versability unmatched and an overall high quality feeling.


Agreed on all fronts.

- One the RCA output, I agree that a fixed line out would have been preferable, but even much more expensive gear like my Meridian Prime also have variable RCA out.  It is not an audiophile purist approach, but I have not found any issues using it as a pre-amp.  I tested the iFi as a preamp as well feeding my Yamaha amplifier, and the sound quality is extremely good.

- I have tested the iDSD with my Grado PS1000s, and was surprised that it can drive it very well without degradation and not even getting to the maximum volume level

 

My only concern at the moment is the question of how much will the internal battery last, especially at the rate that I'm using it and abusing it....  :k701smile:

post #134 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by ticos442 View Post
 

My only concern at the moment is the question of how much will the internal battery last, especially at the rate that I'm using it and abusing it....  :k701smile:

Is the battery user-replaceable when it is worn-out? What is the runtime on a full charge? So far it looks like a must-buy to me. I still wonder if IOS doesn't resample to 24/96. 

post #135 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by ticos442 View Post
 

For PCM content only (not DSD), I have successfully used 8Player from the Seagate Wireless Plus server.  This works perfectly well all the way up to 24/192 content.   I have not found yet an Apple player app that supports DSD content while streaming from a server.

I also haven't found an app which can play DSD or SACD.ISOs but that is of no concern to me. I play mostly flac in many varietys 24/88, 96, 176, 192. I hope they all play without up or down sampling.

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