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Why pick on cables ? - Page 21  

post #301 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

Don't you listen to music with friends? Or do they sit on your lap?
It isn't impossible to have a sweet spot and have decent sound throughout the room. But in that particular photo, even te sweet spot isn't the sweet spot because the mids and trebles are six feet in the air. You'd need a chair on stilts and a ceiling twice that high to get a sweet spot.
Again it isn't the EQ guy's fault because that system in that room is like an elephant in a suitcase.

If a friend wants to listen to music, he picks it and I give him the chair. They usually start talking anyway, so what's the difference? I have never had multiple guests when no one talked through the music. After not too long, everybody does on and off.

I am accomodating and not hard core about anything but my own listening. For me, if the music doesn't rate my full attention, I don't care about it. Phil Hill, the late Ferrari Grand Prix driver, was unusual for an American (but not for a European classical listener back then). When he had company over and put on his classical, everyone had to be totally quiet and listen.
Edited by Clarkmc2 - 9/8/12 at 11:55pm
post #302 of 403
I have great friends I guess! All they ever say is, "Can I get you another drink?"
Edited by bigshot - 9/8/12 at 11:59pm
post #303 of 403

My take on it is that with out equalization, proper room dimensions and treatment, even the sweet spot will be a bit wonky... Specially with large full range powerful speakers in small rooms... And no amount of virgin tears treated cables is going to change that.

 

Room limitations are among the reasons I'm into headphones. I don't have a dedicated room that would satisfy the requirements for a proper listening room. Add to that that I have a wife and two little ones, and the problem is compounded frown.gif


Edited by ultrabike - 9/9/12 at 1:00am
post #304 of 403

Aftermarket headphone cables can make a difference (not necessarily better). However, they are all extremely overpriced. I suspect that non of the $300+ aftermarket cables will have a production cost of more than $10. This is similar to the market of fragrances. The nature of the demand side makes it super profitable for the supply side.

post #305 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by econparanoia View Post

Aftermarket headphone cables can make a difference (not necessarily better). However, they are all extremely overpriced. I suspect that non of the $300+ aftermarket cables will have a production cost of more than $10. This is similar to the market of fragrances. The nature of the demand side makes it super profitable for the supply side.


If the stock cable is prone to oxidizing, with too week mechanical support, and fragile connectors, aftermarket cables could make a positive difference. I believe the cost of such cable should probably factor cable length, wire gauge and interconnect depending on application. A decent stock 6ft USB cable IMHO should not be more than $10 given standardization and mass production.

 

Things may be different if we factor aesthetics and custom build. Still, $300 seems excessive to me, and it should be clear that one is paying for the customization and aesthetics. From the little I know, if ones objective is better sound quality, money maybe better spent on a decent pair of headphones and well recorded music than on uber-pricey cables.

 

As a point of reference, $330 gets you an entry level iPad mini.


Edited by ultrabike - 12/11/12 at 6:56pm
post #306 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrabike View Post

 

As a point of reference, $330 gets you an entry level iPad mini.

 

Or a new Beyer 880/600

post #307 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamstrain View Post

 

Or a new Beyer 880/600

That too! biggrin.gif

post #308 of 403
I yanked the plug off my Sennheiser HD590s and a replacement cable from Sennheiser was $8 shipped.
post #309 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

I yanked the plug off my Sennheiser HD590s and a replacement cable from Sennheiser was $8 shipped.


Those are more than likely not cryo treated with holy water, so you will not hear things you never heard before.

post #310 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrabike View Post


Those are more than likely not cryo treated with holy water, so you will not hear things you never heard before.

 

There's a word for those who suddenly start hear things they have never heard before...

post #311 of 403

Regarding 'cables' and pricing :

Some of you probably remember the cassette-tape ..

Do you remember how many different brands you could buy in it's glory-days ?

Do you also know how many factories existed that actually manufactured 'the raw material' ?

 

It's the same with 'cables' : The machines used to make the actual wire cost a ton of money .

The few manufacturers will generally sell their wire to anybody who can pay, and allow them to 're-brand' as they please .

(IF it really made such a huge difference : Where are all the patents ??)

 

Anyone who has been in a recording-studio or done Live-jobs has probably noticed the name 'Mogami' ?

If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me - And it sure as crap don't cost a thousand buck/foot !!


Edited by AKG240mkII - 12/23/12 at 4:54am
post #312 of 403
My 0.02 cents is that cables mentally make a difference. IF different types of cables were so important then why do the majority of manufacturers of the amps and preamps etc only use normal copper wire of the correct thickness.

If you open most "high end" equipment that cost thousands of dollars and look inside you won't see any of those fancy cables. Yes they don't have to cover the same distance but that also means that by the same token they don't cost as much to implement as the distance is so short so cost is low. For those high priced items if the cables make a sonic difference would they not use them even as a selling point?

If the amps wiring to the connection posts of the amps have to carry such high current and the speaker cables do why are they so thin. From a heat point of view thicker cables would mean less resistance and less heat.

Amp internals 1
Internal 2
internal 3
Internal 4

Cable to speakers
Speaker cables
Edited by Habitat - 1/23/13 at 6:29am
post #313 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitat View Post


If the amps wiring to the connection posts of the amps have to carry such high current and the speaker cables do why are they so thin. From a heat point of view thicker cables would mean less resistance and less heat.

You do understand that wire resistance is measured in ohms per unit length, right?

16ga wire is about 4 ohms per 1000ft. A 3 inch length has a resistance of .001 ohms. That's 1/10 of the contact resistance of a banana plug in a binding post jack, and there are 4 of those plug/jack combinations in each speaker circuit.

Heat is the result of resistance and current. It's dissipated over the length of the wire. The average power delivered to speakers at normal listening levels is hardly ever more than 25 Watts. Assuming a 4 ohm speaker, that's 2.5 amps.

2.5 Amps through a .001 ohm resistor causes it to dissipate 6.25mW of power (spread over 3 inches). There could be up to 10,000 times that figure being dissipated in the power transformer at idle.
post #314 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post

Heat is the result of resistance and current. It's dissipated over the length of the wire. The average power delivered to speakers at normal listening levels is hardly ever more than 25 Watts. Assuming a 4 ohm speaker, that's 2.5 amps.

2.5 Amps through a .001 ohm resistor causes it to dissipate 6.25mW of power (spread over 3 inches). There could be up to 10,000 times that figure being dissipated in the power transformer at idle.

Funny you mention it, I recently purchased a current meter to measure electricity usage on my computer at idle/load, and I tested my receiver with it. The receiver puts out 120w per channel into 6ohm, or 75w into 8ohm, 5 channels. Speakers are 6 ohm @ 87db sensitivity, so they are relatively hard to power. Total electricity usage playing 5.1 material at 0db gain (really loud): 40 watts and 3.5 amps for the entire receiver. I can't specify how much was going to each channel, but it must be a fraction of that, minus the power required to run the DSP chips, LCD screen, etc. The amount of power amps really put out is overblown. You'll never see the staggering wattage figures on the box in real life. Ever. That said, I think gauge thickness is the only reason to spend more money on wire and I can understand slight overkill for it. I'd rather buy 16 gauge radio shack wire than 24 gauge of anything else, no matter how many Buddhist monks may have blessed it, or how pretty the braiding is. Gauge is the only rational variable. 

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge, just for reference. You were right about the 4ohm/1k feet for 16 gauge, but I still thought the chart could be useful.

AWG Diameter Turns of wire
(no insulation)
Area Copper
resistance[6]
NEC copper wire
ampacitywith
60/75/90 °C
insulation (A)[7]
Approximate
standard metric
equivalents
Fusing Current (copper)[8][9]
(inch) (mm) (per in) (per cm) (kcmil) (mm2) (Ω/km)
(mΩ/m)
(Ω/kFT)
(mΩ/ft)
Preece
(~10s)
Onderdonk
(1s)
Onderdonk
(32ms)
0000 (4/0) 0.4600* 11.684* 2.17 0.856 212 107 0.1608 0.04901 195 / 230 / 260   3.2 kA 31 kA 173 kA
000 (3/0) 0.4096 10.405 2.44 0.961 168 85.0 0.2028 0.06180 165 / 200 / 225   2.7 kA 24.5 kA 137 kA
00 (2/0) 0.3648 9.266 2.74 1.08 133 67.4 0.2557 0.07793 145 / 175 / 195   2.3 kA 19.5 kA 109 kA
0 (1/0) 0.3249 8.251 3.08 1.21 106 53.5 0.3224 0.09827 125 / 150 / 170   1.9 kA 15.5 kA 87 kA
1 0.2893 7.348 3.46 1.36 83.7 42.4 0.4066 0.1239 110 / 130 / 150   1.6 kA 12 kA 68 kA
2 0.2576 6.544 3.88 1.53 66.4 33.6 0.5127 0.1563 95 / 115 / 130   1.3 kA 9.7 kA 54 kA
3 0.2294 5.827 4.36 1.72 52.6 26.7 0.6465 0.1970 85 / 100 / 110 196/0.4 1.1 kA 7.7 kA 43 kA
4 0.2043 5.189 4.89 1.93 41.7 21.2 0.8152 0.2485 70 / 85 / 95   946 A 6.1 kA 34 kA
5 0.1819 4.621 5.50 2.16 33.1 16.8 1.028 0.3133   126/0.4 795 A 4.8 kA 27 kA
6 0.1620 4.115 6.17 2.43 26.3 13.3 1.296 0.3951 55 / 65 / 75   668 A 3.8 kA 21 kA
7 0.1443 3.665 6.93 2.73 20.8 10.5 1.634 0.4982   80/0.4 561 A 3 kA 17 kA
8 0.1285 3.264 7.78 3.06 16.5 8.37 2.061 0.6282 40 / 50 / 55   472 A 2.4 kA 13.5 kA
9 0.1144 2.906 8.74 3.44 13.1 6.63 2.599 0.7921   84/0.3 396 A 1.9 kA 10.7 kA
10 0.1019 2.588 9.81 3.86 10.4 5.26 3.277 0.9989 30 / 35 / 40 333 A 1.5 kA 8.5 kA
11 0.0907 2.305 11.0 4.34 8.23 4.17 4.132 1.260   56/0.3 280 A 1.2 kA 6.7 kA
12 0.0808 2.053 12.4 4.87 6.53 3.31 5.211 1.588 25 / 25 / 30   235 A 955 A 5.3 kA
13 0.0720 1.828 13.9 5.47 5.18 2.62 6.571 2.003   50/0.25 198 A 758 A 4.2 kA
14 0.0641 1.628 15.6 6.14 4.11 2.08 8.286 2.525 20 / 20 / 25 64/0.2 166 A 601 A 3.3 kA
15 0.0571 1.450 17.5 6.90 3.26 1.65 10.45 3.184   30/0.25 140 A 477 A 2.7 kA
16 0.0508 1.291 19.7 7.75 2.58 1.31 13.17 4.016 — / — / 18 117 A 377 A 2.1 kA
17 0.0453 1.150 22.1 8.70 2.05 1.04 16.61 5.064   32/0.2 99 A 300 A 1.7 kA
18 0.0403 1.024 24.8 9.77 1.62 0.823 20.95 6.385 — / — / 14 24/0.2 83 A 237 A 1.3 kA
19 0.0359 0.912 27.9 11.0 1.29 0.653 26.42 8.051   70 A 189 A 1 kA
20 0.0320 0.812 31.3 12.3 1.02 0.518 33.31 10.15   16/0.2 58.5 A 149 A 834 A
21 0.0285 0.723 35.1 13.8 0.810 0.410 42.00 12.80   13/0.2 49 A 119 A 662 A
22 0.0253 0.644 39.5 15.5 0.642 0.326 52.96 16.14   7/0.25 41 A 94 A 525 A
23 0.0226 0.573 44.3 17.4 0.509 0.258 66.79 20.36     35 A 74 A 416 A
24 0.0201 0.511 49.7 19.6 0.404 0.205 84.22 25.67   1/0.5, 7/0.2, 30/0.1 29 A 59 A 330 A
25 0.0179 0.455 55.9 22.0 0.320 0.162 106.2 32.37     24 A 47 A 262 A
26 0.0159 0.405 62.7 24.7 0.254 0.129 133.9 40.81   1/0.4, 7/0.15 20 A 37 A 208 A
27 0.0142 0.361 70.4 27.7 0.202 0.102 168.9 51.47     17 A 30 A 165 A
28 0.0126 0.321 79.1 31.1 0.160 0.0810 212.9 64.90   7/0.12 14 A 23 A 131 A
29 0.0113 0.286 88.8 35.0 0.127 0.0642 268.5 81.84     12 A 19 A 104 A
30 0.0100 0.255 99.7 39.3 0.101 0.0509 338.6 103.2   1/0.25, 7/0.1 10 A 15 A 83 A
31 0.00893 0.227 112 44.1 0.0797 0.0404 426.9 130.1     9 A 12 A 65 A
32 0.00795 0.202 126 49.5 0.0632 0.0320 538.3 164.1   1/0.2, 7/0.08 7 A 9 A 52 A
33 0.00708 0.180 141 55.6 0.0501 0.0254 678.8 206.9     6 A 7 A 41 A
34 0.00630 0.160 159 62.4 0.0398 0.0201 856.0 260.9     5 A 6 A 33 A
35 0.00561 0.143 178 70.1 0.0315 0.0160 1079 329.0     4 A 5 A 26 A
36 0.00500* 0.127* 200 78.7 0.0250 0.0127 1361 414.8     4 A 4 A 20 A
37 0.00445 0.113 225 88.4 0.0198 0.0100 1716 523.1     3 A 3 A 16 A
38 0.00397 0.101 252 99.3 0.0157 0.00797 2164 659.6     3 A 2 A 13 A
39 0.00353 0.0897 283 111 0.0125 0.00632 2729 831.8     2 A 2 A 10 A
40 0.00314 0.0799 318 125 0.00989 0.00501 3441 1049     2 A 1 A 8 A

 


Edited by Strangelove424 - 1/23/13 at 12:07pm
post #315 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKG240mkII View Post

Regarding 'cables' and pricing :

Some of you probably remember the cassette-tape ..

Do you remember how many different brands you could buy in it's glory-days ?

Do you also know how many factories existed that actually manufactured 'the raw material' ?

 

It's the same with 'cables' : The machines used to make the actual wire cost a ton of money .

The few manufacturers will generally sell their wire to anybody who can pay, and allow them to 're-brand' as they please .

(IF it really made such a huge difference : Where are all the patents ??)

 

Anyone who has been in a recording-studio or done Live-jobs has probably noticed the name 'Mogami' ?

If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me - And it sure as crap don't cost a thousand buck/foot !!

 

 

Indeed!!

 

Unless a product is built by hand in a small workshop it's likely using a small selection of parts as everyone else

 

I suspected the majority of cable companies to be literally scam outfits run by a marketing team/investors since it's very unlikely they could modify the cable machines to spew out the

magical unicorn material properties some claim to have without raising prices significantly.

 

Infact, chances are very high the cable company will claim they did the requested treatments then charge 150% more. Followed by giving them same un-modified cable they usually sell in better packaging.

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