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post #16 of 134

Strangely, most Americans seem to admire Lance Armstrong but have no idea what the Tour de France is.

post #17 of 134

Who doesn´t love winners lol. They are great until they are caught cheating.

 

Lance Armstrong is obviously guilty or else he wouldn´t mind defending his innocense knowing there is no evidence. Obviously there is and thus he is doing a bit of an Assange and go for the "conspiracy". 

 

 I don´t think anybody who know anything about the bicycle sport is surprised. You could hardly win these tours going clean with competitors that took steroids and what not to just endure the pain. You can win a single race perhaps but not an entire tour without help with recovery. So he is guilty like the most top runners. Read an article where Rasmussen which finished seventh claimed he would get the gold. He claimed that he should got the gold in some of the Tour de France tours because 5 of the 6 front runners had got caught later using dope and the other was one that had charges against Lance and was biased. Same Danish that escaped doping tests by lying about where he was and got a two year suspension :p

post #18 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by oqvist View Post

Who doesn´t love winners lol. They are great until they are caught cheating.

 

Lance Armstrong is obviously guilty or else he wouldn´t mind defending his innocense knowing there is no evidence. Obviously there is and thus he is doing a bit of an Assange and go for the "conspiracy". 

 

 I don´t think anybody who know anything about the bicycle sport is surprised. You could hardly win these tours going clean with competitors that took steroids and what not to just endure the pain. You can win a single race perhaps but not an entire tour without help with recovery. So he is guilty like the most top runners. Read an article where Rasmussen which finished seventh claimed he would get the gold. He claimed that he should got the gold in some of the Tour de France tours because 5 of the 6 front runners had got caught later using dope and the other was one that had charges against Lance and was biased. Same Danish that escaped doping tests by lying about where he was and got a two year suspension :p


I don't agree with this. How would you feel if you are being accused of BS regarding something 13 years in the past. If he was truly caught then of course action should have been taken at that point if it is true. Otherwise its all moot and just dragging things through the mud. I'd also feel like not even fighting something like this knowing the politics, statue of limitations, and how long and how much time would be wasted fighting something like this. If I was to fight it however I'd sue their asses for decimation of character and make it worth my while. This kinda thing ruins people reputation and can cause a lot of stress. Good thing hes basically out of the sport though. It would make it that much worse otherwise.


Edited by lee730 - 8/28/12 at 6:29am
post #19 of 134

He is not out of the sport though  and I don´t believe he is a victim of ******** dope charges.

 

It´s just good for the sport the more that comes clean. Just make it easier to take the sport seriously.

Sport on this level is not healthy even without use of steroids and painkillers.

post #20 of 134
Thread Starter 

MUST READ!

(Please go through the whole list from the beginning to the end. - It's like reading a thriller!)

 

 

1930

 

The acceptance of drug-taking in the Tour de France was so complete by 1930 that the rule book, distributed by Henri Desgrange, reminded riders that drugs would not be provided by the organisers.[19]

 

...

 

1965

 

  • Jacques Anquetil of France never hid that he took drugs - a common practice at the time - and in a debate with a government minister on French television said that only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux–Paris on just water. He and other cyclists had to ride through "the cold, through heatwaves, in the rain and in the mountains", and they had the right to treat themselves as they wished, he said in a television interview, before adding: "Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope."[35] There was implied acceptance of doping right to the top of the state: the president, Charles de Gaulle, said of Anquetil: "Doping? What doping? Did he or did he not make them play the Marseillaise [the French national anthem] abroad?"[36] The veteran reporter Pierre Chany said: "Jacques had the strength - for which he was always criticised - to say out loud what others would only whisper. So, when I asked him 'What have you taken?' he didn't drop his eyes before replying. He had the strength of conviction."[37]

 

....

 

Performance-enhancing drugs became illegal on 1 June 1965.

 

...

 

1969

 

Eddy Merckx of Belgium tested positive for the stimulant Reactivan at Savona during the 1969 Giro d'Italia, after leading the race through 16 stages. Merckx was found positive at doping control and expelled from the Giro. Merckx steadfastly denied the charges. The controversy began to swirl when his test results were not handled in the ordinary manner. The positive doping control was released to the press before all parties (Merckx and team officials) involved were notified.[46]

 

....

 

1973

 

 

...

 

1975

  • Erik de Vlaeminck of Belgium never failed a drugs test in his racing career, but he was treated after it for amphetamine addiction at a psychiatric institute. Many stories circulate about his reported wild behaviour after races and when he put his career on hold. When he returned to racing, the Belgian federation would offer him a licence for only a day at a time until it saw how his life would progress. He refuses to speak of this period of his life.

 

...

 

1977

 

A Belgian doctor, Professor Michel Debackere, perfected a test for the detection of Pemoline, an amphetamine-like drug, and caught three of the biggest names in Belgium:

Eddy Merckx, Freddy Maertens and Michel Pollentier

 

...

 

1980

 

  • Dietrich Thurau ("Didi") of Germany tested positive on 3 occasions in 1980 and again in 1987.[72][73] After he stopped his career in 1989, he admitted in an interview in Bild that he used doping, and that most cyclists did.[74]

 

 

...

 

1997

 

 

...

 

 

1999

 

Lance Armstrong tested positive for corticoids during the 1999 Tour de France. The small amounts of corticoids in a urine sample were explained by the prescription for skin cream (saddle sores / boil / allergy) that he subsequently presented to the UCI, thus he was cleared of any offence.[176]

 

The 1999 Tour de France

In 2005 the French sports daily L'Équipe accused Lance Armstrong of using the performance-enhancing drug EPO during 1999 Tour de France. For years, it had been impossible to detect the drug, called erythropoietin, until UCI began using a urine test for EPO in 2001. According to the newspaper, tests on 1999 urine samples were done to help scientists improve their detection methods. The newspaper said 12 samples had revealed EPO use, including six from Armstrong.[182][183] In 2006 a UCI appointed independent lawyer, Emile Vrijman, released a report in 2006 claiming that Lance Armstrong should be cleared of any suspicion surrounding the retrospective testing of the 1999 Tour de France. Vrijman denounced the manner in which the doping laboratory in Châtenay-Malabry carried out its research, claiming that there were too many procedural and chain of custody gaps.[184][185] The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) rejected it, calling it defamatory to WADA and its officers and employees, as well as the accredited laboratory involved.[186]

In 2005, French daily 'Le Journal du Dimanche' reported that Spanish rider Manuel Beltrán, Danish Bo Hamburger and Colombian Joaquim Castelblanco were suspected of being among those whose frozen urine samples reportedly tested positive.[187]

 

...

 

2009

 

On 11 February, the Italian National Olympic Committee matched DNA samples taken from Alejandro Valverde during a rest day in Italy of the 2008 Tour de France to blood seized in the Operación Puerto investigation.[356] At a February 2009 appearance in front of the Olympic Committee, Valverde maintained his innocence and questioned the Italians' jurisdiction over this case. In May 2009, the Italian Olympic Committee suspended him from competition in Italy for 2 years, effectively barring him from the 2009 Tour de France, which detoured briefly onto Italian soil.[357

 

...

 

2012

 

 

 ...

 

  • On 13 June, the USADA sent a letter to Lance Armstrong and five cycling associates (including Johan Bruyneel, Michele Ferrari, team doctors Pedro Celaya and Luis Garcia del Moral, and trainer Jose Pepe Martí) charging them with conspiring in doping between 1998 and 2011.[425]
  • On 10 July, police raided Cofidis hotel and took Remy di Gregorio into custody, effectively withdrawing him from the Tour de France he was competing in at the time. This is related to a doping affair which happened in 2011 when di Gregorio was riding for Astana.[426]
  • On 10 July, the USADA issued lifetime bans for Michele Ferrari, Luis Garcia del Moral, and Jose Pepe Marti in relation to the doping conspiracy charges.[427] Jose Pepe Marti later opted to have his case taken in arbitration, and the USADA agreed to the request, suspending his lifetime ban.[428]

 

...

 

  • On 23 August, Lance Armstrong declined to proceed to arbitration and contest the charges of systematic doping levied against him by the United States Anti-Doping Agency. [433] Thus, Armstrong was deemed guilty of doping and banned for life, and USADA considers his results from 1 August 1998 null. [434]

 

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

post #21 of 134

I was the Outdoor Life Network's (OLN) senior video editor for the last 6 of the 7 Tour de France races Lance Armstrong raced in and won.  During that time I was also the senior video editor for the Giro d'Italia and the Vuelta a España.   I cut most of the features for the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, and the Vuelta a España not to mention every single stage of each of those races for 6 years.  In all that time I've never seen a single cyclist work as hard as Lance Armstrong on his racing technique.  He was by far the hardest working cyclist among  any I've witnessed, no one even came close. He was driven like no one on two wheels.  After he won each Tour he would take maybe 2 weeks off and get back on the road training.  He practiced different pedaling cadences for different situations, uphill, downhill, straight away, time trails.  He slept in an oxygen chamber, the food he digested was measured in joules and when he urinated his urine was measured for its joule content just to see how much energy his body was using during his training. He never let up. When the stages of each tour were announced he would go and ride each stage and then on the next day ride it again just to become familiar with the route.  In terms of training and will power there was Lance in one universe and every other rider in another far off lesser universe.  I've spent a lot of time with Phil Liggett, Paul Sherwen, and Bob Roll during those races and there was never a mention or suspicion that Armstrong did anything illegal. But one never knows.  Personally I find it very hard to believe that he did. His training regime was relentless.  He worked incredibly hard at every aspect of his cycling, made himself ready for any situation. I don't know of any athlete who worked as hard as Lance, I used to think if only the other cyclists worked half as hard as Armstrong they might have chance against him but none of them seemed to have his amazing work ethic. Certainly not Jan Ulrich.  So I don't really know if Lance doped or not, with my experience working those races I find it very very hard to believe.  It has always seemed to me that there has been a long witch hunt against him. 

 

After each Tour everyone on staff got a cool Tour Memento.  Of all the ones I have this one is my favorite.

 


Edited by WarriorAnt - 8/30/12 at 5:54pm
post #22 of 134

Great to hear WarriorAnt. Sounds like you don't have an ulterior motive like many of these people do. Jealousy is a very ugly thing. Seems like you knew him pretty well and had a lot of respect for him. I figure if he truly was guilty of the crimes he would have been punished then and there...


Edited by lee730 - 8/30/12 at 2:33am
post #23 of 134

I guess you have to feel for lance in the end. I mean, his decision to stop defending himself clearly points to one thing: if they want to get you they will. When they don't they won't. Not much I could do about it, regardless of innocence or guilt.

 

These performance enchancing drugs have scarred olympic (atheltic type) sports permanently in the modern world and it looks like it'll only get worse. I mean take us people, who sit on our fat (or not so fat) backsides all day. Think about how much potentially dodgey ingredients we have unknowingly taken over the years, from dodgy kids sweets E-numbers to cosmetics to ointments to whatever really. Any one 'innocent' ingredient could be illegal to an athlete. But an athlete is, well, an athlete so naturally you would expect them to take more ointments, creams and food stuffs as they lead a much more active lifestyle and so need to patch up a lot more than us. Yea they have to take more care as quite a few of them get paid loads, but sometimes it's almost impossible to keep everything in check when normal life exposes you to so so many risky ingredients. 

 

This guy, lance, has done what we've all seen. I don't think this accusation and end result would cause many to doubt him really. I can't see him loosing many fans. The only problem is this world of doping and drugs is just too shady and mysterious for anyone to really base concrete judgements upon. My opinion anyway.

post #24 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorAnt View Post

I was the Outdoor Life Network's (OLN) senior video editor for the last 6 of the 7 Tour de France races Lance Armstrong raced in and won.  During that time I was also the senior video editor for the Giro d'Italia and the Vuelta a España.   I cut most of the features for the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, and the Vuelta a España not to mention every single stage of each of those races for 6 years.  In all that time I've never seen a single cyclist work as hard as Lance Armstrong on his racing technique.  He was by far the hardest working cyclist among  any I've witnessed, no one even came close. He was driven like no one on two wheels.  After he won each Tour he would take maybe 2 weeks off and get back on the road training.  He practiced different pedaling cadences for different situations, uphill, downhill, straight away, time trails.  He slept in an oxygen chamber, the food he digested was measured in joules and when he urinated his urine was measured for its joule content just to see how much energy his body was using during his training. He never let up. When the stages of each tour were announced he would go and ride each stage and then on the next day ride it again just to become familiar with the route.  In terms of training and will power there was Lance in one universe and every other rider in another far off lesser universe.  I've spent a lot of time with Phil Liggett, Paul Sherwen, and Bob Roll during those races and there was never a mention or suspicion that Armstrong did anything illegal. But one never knows.  Personally I find it very hard to believe that he did. His training regime was relentless.  He worked incredibly hard at every aspect of his cycling, made himself ready for any situation. I don't know of any athlete who worked as hard as Lance, I used to think if only the other cyclists worked half as hard as Armstrong they might have chance against him but none of them seemed to have his amazing work ethic. Certainly not Jan Ulrich.  So I don't really know if Lance doped or not, with my experience working those races I find it very very hard to believe.  It has always seemed to me that there has been a long witch hunt against him. 

 

After each Tour everyone of staff got a cool Tour Memento.  Of all the ones I have this one is my favorite.

 

 

 

Thanx for your very interesting post. 

There's (at least) one guy who was much closer to Lance Armstrong than you,

 namely George Hincapie.

 

Some of us have read this:

 

 

Quote:

In his books about cycling, cancer, fame and family and how they have intertwined to make him who he is, Lance Armstrong, the seven-time Tour de France winner, delves into fine detail about the roles his top teammates played on his champion teams.

 

He talks about how those riders became as close as family and how George Hincapie, his road captain and longtime lieutenant, grew to know him the best.

 

“There have been times when I’ve practically lived out of the same suitcase with George Hincapie,” Armstrong said in “Every Second Counts.” “In cycling, we’re on the side of a mountain for weeks, in small hotel rooms, sharing every ache, and pain, and meal. You get to know everything about each other, including things you’d rather not.”

 

...

 

Because Hincapie is considered a credible and reluctant witness, his testimony could be the most damaging evidence against Armstrong, who is accused of doping and playing a key role in a vast doping conspiracy. According to people with knowledge of the case, Hincapie has told the United States Anti-Doping Agency about systematic doping on Armstrong’s teams, of which Armstrong played a part.

 

...

 

If Hincapie does testify, it has the potential to be one of the starkest, most jarring revelations in a sport known for its code of silence regarding doping.

 

Hincapie is likely to know more about the behind-the-scenes activity on Armstrong’s squads than any other rider; he was the only one to be at Armstrong’s side for all seven of his Tour victories.

 

Joe Papp, a former professional cyclist and convicted steroid trafficker turned antidoping advocate, said Hincapie’s word would be “unimpeachable and “will finally lead people to the point where they don’t believe Lance is innocent anymore.”

 

...

He [Hincapie]   then provided evidence about Armstrong and the organized doping on their teams to the antidoping agency.

 

...

He’s [Hincapie] a guy who fundamentally wants to do the right things, but he is also fantastically loyal,” Stapleton said. “But when George talks, people are going to listen. You’re talking about the most liked and most respected American cyclist, maybe ever. We called him Captain America, for all the good reasons.”

 

...

In a film about Hincapie called “A Ride With George Hincapie,” Armstrong was asked how he would describe Hincapie in a word. “I’d have to choose loyal,” he said. “He was loyal to me as a team captain, he was loyal to me as a friend.”

 

...

 

 

From http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/sports/cycling/hincapie-an-armstrong-teammate-seen-as-reluctant-but-reliable-witness.html?pagewanted=all

 

Being under the influence of the above article  I'd call Lance Armstrong: Captain Doper.

 

 

 

 


Edited by JakeJack_2008 - 8/30/12 at 6:08pm
post #25 of 134

I do not believe I said I was close to Armstrong. I do not know him on any personal basis.   I have met Hincapie briefly. I have heard audio testimony from Hincapie.   I'm not sure if any witness who is getting some sort of amnesty or deal in return for testimony could ever be called reliable.  I believe I also stated that I do not know if Armstrong doped or not. My post was more to the point that Armstrong was the hardest working cyclist of his time and it would seem very unlikely that he doped.   He did take over 500 tests during his cycling time and it has always seemed that someone with some petty agenda has always been out to get him.  I wonder if you might understand exactly what I mean by that but I think not. I'm sure that after reading a few articles on the subject you know all you need to know concerning his guilt or his innocence, which apparently is everything.

post #26 of 134

Oops, sorry thought you kinda new him personally from your above comments. I do understand what you mean by people being out to get him. It just seems that way to me from prior allegations as well. That is why I said "jeoulsy is a very ugly thing".
 

post #27 of 134
.
Edited by WarriorAnt - 7/3/13 at 7:46pm
post #28 of 134

Yep I feel the same way. One sided fight (Judge, Jury and Executioner in one ;)

post #29 of 134

I think I heard mention that every second place finisher when Lance won has already been busted for drug use.  So who ends up with all those wins?

 

I wonder, are all cyclists tested at the same frequency?  IF not, how would it even be remotely possible to call anyone THE winner of those tours all those years ago?

 

My personal opinion is that Lance didn't dope.  I just don't see how one can be made to take all those tests over the course of a career and still come up clean if they'd been doping. 

 

And as for him giving up the fight...I think after 13 years of fighting proving your innocence over and over and over can wear any person down to the point of saying, "Yeah, whatever.  Do what you want." 

 

Regardless of what he's done in the cycling world, I think his true contribution has been helpig others through his Live Strong foundation. 

post #30 of 134

There are those who believe Lance doped and believe everything what the news spews out.  When he won his unprecedented 6th consecutive win, I think that's when the European organizations really question his win, which doesn't surprise me one bit.  Take an outsider (USA) and he/she dominates a predominately European passion sport, and you'll get the magnifying effect. 

 

It's no surprise how much animosity there is with competitive sports, even amongst teammates.  I believe Lance happens to be on the small scale of naturally gifted heavy weights like Jordan was to basketball.  And with that gift comes the burden of allegations and jealousy to uphold one's stance against all else who may not be as naturally gifted/talented.

 

I recall and article from Outside magazine who did an interview with Floyd Landis who stated, "he who trains the hardest, wins".  Lance's intense training is a testament to this statement.  However, it doesn't apply if one doesn't have that naturally, gifted edge already.

 

I agree that the most important legacy Lance will leave with what Live Strong foundation has done even with his crowns stripped away. 

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