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Ultrasone Signature DJ - Page 118

post #1756 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post

The paper test doesn't show the punchiness though. It only measures share bass quantities (and it's not that accurate as distance, the positioning/angle of the cup towards the paper all play a role and this is more like "roughly" setup equally), not every1 are in it for the bass quantity, huge bass quantity doesn't necessarily equal to good punchiness. XB700 for example has 15dB subbass boost but the punchiness/impact is low.


That was the point TWek pointed out that Ultrasones do well, they provide a sense of impact/punch in the bass which is seen in the 30Hz square measurement.

Here's the SONY XB700 bass/paper test as comparison
SONY MDR-XB700
Cut in half sheet of fresh out the pack A4 printer paper used

No tape used - paper placed over left earcup with right ear cup holding/sealing
Test Conditions


Source:Cowon DAP ,Flat eq, BBE+8 MACH3BASS +9 playing YouTube Wiz Khalifa's "On My Level" track


Amp: FiioE12 with bass boost switch on
Recommend:
Play video on full screen to check paper vibrations with fullest detail


Don't get me wrong - I absolutely love my Signature DJ's, but this visual test beats any frequency response chart dead in the water for demonstrating the SPL of bass "slam" - the paper vibrations act as a visual to what hits your ears/side of face.
Edited by cb3723 - 7/6/14 at 6:22am
post #1757 of 2456

The problem is you don't even know what is meant by "punch", in scientific terms it's the initial hit when the bass lands which lasts like 0.1 sec or whatever which fades away quickly while the bass beat is playing, it's the the initial almost invisible "thud" you can hear faintly in the video too. Of course that won't make the paper shake, that's the constant stream of outputted low frequencies, that has NOTHING to do with punchiness. In rap the bpm is fairly low and the bass beats doesn't punch so often but in other electronic genres the bpm (beats per minute) is faster and regular in rythm. House is usually 128 bpm and hardstyle genre I listen to is usually 150 bpm so you hear a "punch" over 2 times in 1 second when the kick drum hops in.

The Sennheiser HD25-II, XB700 and XB500 are good comparisons in terms of punchiness. 

The Sennheiser HD25-II is the least bassy of the three as seen in the frequency response measurements linked above but it has the strongest punch. Here let's take a look at the 30Hz Square wave measurement of HD25-II:

 

HD25-II

 

I highlited the punch part with the limegreen color. The left and right channels seem a little unbalanced, the right channel in this case seems to have a bit stronger bass response and punch. The longer protruding/peakier this part is, the stronger punch it has. Various headphones have various amount punchiness to them even with the exact same bass quantity. Now the XB700 actually has the worst punchiness of the three:

 

XB700

 

You can barely see any punch protruding in the 30Hz squarewave! This is also explains why I was so dissappointed with XB700's bass around the time I just had started to love Hardstyle because hardstyle is a genre where the punch matters more than any other genre (except hardcore and perhaps hardtrance, the "hard" part also reflects the focus on punch in the bass that all these hard dance music genres share in common but punchiness matters to basically any genres using electronic bass beats but also drums, kick-drums especially). I was using XB700 for roughly around 2 weeks at that time but thought the bass was so "soft" in the impact as I saw it then when I picked up one and then I decided to give XB500 a go and I instantly liked its bass much more, I could feel the beats pounding much better. At that time I had no idea exactly why, well I thought it was simply because of the lack of midbass in XB700 in comparison to XB500 but midbass is just part of the reason, the punchiness is the vital reason behind it. The XB500's 30Hz squarewave looks like this:

 

XB500

 

Here the punch stands out much better in comparison to XB700 and not that far behind HD25-II! In comparison the XB700 I instantly thought back then, hey, this headphone pounds the beats with more force! Today I understand more the science behind it, I'm not sure exactly what causes a more punchier bass in headphones, if it's down to dampening or whatever (unlikely since the XB500 and XB700 use same structure) but at least I know what to look for now!

So there you have it, a scientific explanation on what "punch" refers to. My point was, that tests doesn't tell anything about punchiness and to me the punchiness is a big matter! 


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 7/6/14 at 6:54am
post #1758 of 2456

That little bow in the square wave has nothing to do with the impactfulness of a headphone's bass.

post #1759 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

That little bow in the square wave has nothing to do with the impactfulness of a headphone's bass.


It does, both Tyll has explained it a while ago when explaining all his graphs and how to interpret them as well as I personally have MULTIPLE experiences showing there's a direct connect with that initial bump and how much the punchiness is felt. But maybe you're going to argue both of us are wrong too? Possibly we may not understand each other what we're speaking of but the thing I refer to as punch, certainly works like that. 

Punch != bass quantity. Impact can be seen like combination of both the punch and the bass quantity (the more of both the more impact). I've also often mixed up these terms previously and used impact in the sense of punch before understanding the difference.


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 7/6/14 at 7:05am
post #1760 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The problem is you don't even know what is meant by "punch", in scientific terms it's the initial hit when the bass lands which lasts like 0.1 sec or whatever which fades away quickly while the bass beat is playing, it's the the initial almost invisible "thud" you can hear faintly in the video too. Of course that won't make the paper shake, that's the constant stream of outputted low frequencies, that has NOTHING to do with punchiness. In rap the bpm is fairly low and the bass beats doesn't punch so often but in other electronic genres the bpm (beats per minute) is faster and regular in rythm. House is usually 128 bpm and hardstyle genre I listen to is usually 150 bpm so you hear a "punch" over 2 times in 1 second when the kick drum hops in.


The Sennheiser HD25-II, XB700 and XB500 are good comparisons in terms of punchiness. 


The Sennheiser HD25-II is the least bassy of the three as seen in the frequency response measurements linked above but it has the strongest punch. Here let's take a look at the 30Hz Square wave measurement of HD25-II:

HD25-II



I highlited the punch part with the limegreen color. The left and right channels seem a little unbalanced, the right channel in this case seems to have a bit stronger bass response and punch. The longer protruding/peakier this part is, the stronger punch it has. Various headphones have various amount punchiness to them even with the exact same bass quantity. Now the XB700 actually has the worst punchiness of the three:

XB700



You can barely see any punch protruding in the 30Hz squarewave! This is also explains why I was so dissappointed with XB700's bass around the time I just had started to love Hardstyle because hardstyle is a genre where the punch matters more than any other genre (except hardcore and perhaps hardtrance, the "hard" part also reflects the focus on punch in the bass that all these hard dance music genres share in common but punchiness matters to basically any genres using electronic bass beats but also drums, kick-drums especially). I was using XB700 for roughly around 2 weeks at that time but thought the bass was so "soft" in the impact as I saw it then when I picked up one and then I decided to give XB500 a go and I instantly liked its bass much more, I could feel the beats pounding much better. At that time I had no idea exactly why, well I thought it was simply because of the lack of midbass in XB700 in comparison to XB500 but midbass is just part of the reason, the punchiness is the vital reason behind it. The XB500's 30Hz squarewave looks like this:

XB500



Here the punch stands out much better in comparison to XB700 and not that far behind HD25-II! In comparison the XB700 I instantly thought back then, hey, this headphone pounds the beats with more force! Today I understand more the science behind it, I'm not sure exactly what causes a more punchier bass in headphones, if it's down to dampening or whatever (unlikely since the XB500 and XB700 use same structure) but at least I know what to look for now!


So there you have it, a scientific explanation on what "punch" refers to. My point was, that tests doesn't tell anything about punchiness and to me the punchiness is a big matter! 


What's your fave Hardstyle track that packs your punch on your Q40's?

I've these cans coming to me shortly - be good to compare them to the HD25 1 mk2 Adidas classics and then the A5-Pro shortly after.

Edit: ps - maaan - you love your frequency charts wink.gif
Edited by cb3723 - 7/6/14 at 7:05am
post #1761 of 2456

I think you're misinterpreting what Tyll means by the punchiness in those 30hz square waves.  The square wave is made up of a fundamental and its harmonics, and the 30hz square wave represents the mid to bass transition of a headphone, the leading edge being higher frequencies, while the right-most part of the wave being the lowest of the bass.

 

A good, tight bass with plenty of impact will have a very sustained and straight trailing edge, but the initial small hump in a 30hz square wave indicates a bit of a midrange emphasis, which adds punchiness to the sounds of a headphone, but does not add punch to its bass, it's not a bass thud, it's upper harmonics that sound 'punchy' in the midrange.

 

Tyll cycles through this idea multiple times in his Focal Spirit Professional review, where he considers it to be a nice, punchy sounding headphone.  Its 30hz square wave looks roughly like what the XB700 square wave you posted.

post #1762 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

 

A good, tight bass with plenty of impact will have a very sustained and straight trailing edge, but the initial small hump in a 30hz square wave indicates a bit of a midrange emphasis, which adds punchiness to the sounds of a headphone, but does not add punch to its bass, it's not a bass thud, it's upper harmonics that sound 'punchy' in the midrange.


But that's exactly what I refer to as punch, it's indeed also a mix of lower-midrange that adds to the feel of something "hitting" your ears, it's usually both bass + lower-mids mixed together. I know that vertical length in those graphs refer to how tight/controlled it is so that's no news but that part I showed is the punch part, the initial hit of a kick-drum etc. On its own the bass frequencies can't maintain a punchy feel. The punch part is is usually midbass/lower midrange frequencies in electronic music genres.


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 7/6/14 at 7:28am
post #1763 of 2456

 

The red arrow is where an acoustic measuring device would be placed. Near the driver un-obstructed aside from driver cage/fabric. 

 

The Green arrow is where a paper is laid. 

It's not measuring anything besides notes under approx 80Hz and the amount of that energy that is making it up the pad and transferring to the paper which is analogous to your head. 

(not a perfect analogue but neither is a dummy head with electronics replacing your ear canal and ear drum and pina. )

 

The driver size, the pad type and amp play a greater role than a square wave or anything strictly measuring the driver response parameters.

 

We are not discussing the same thing. Maybe that's on me? You know graphs are driver acoustic measurements. I'm talking about head thumping and an approximate capture of that event.

Different stuff really.

post #1764 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawaiibadboy View Post

 

We are not discussing the same thing. Maybe that's on me? You know graphs are driver acoustic measurements. I'm talking about head thumping and an approximate capture of that event.

Different stuff really.


Yes we're talking about different things, that's why I brought up my explanation on "punch", to YOU the punch doesn't matter that much but it does for me.

post #1765 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post
 


Yes we're talking about different things, that's why I brought up my explanation on "punch", to YOU the punch doesn't matter that much but it does for me.

 

Indeed, I think the rumble being produced by the paper test isn't the same thing as the "punch" or "slam" the headphone provides.

 

I own both an Ultrasone Pro 900, and a Denon 5000. My Ultrasone Pro 900 slams while the D5000 rumbles. You would certainly hear the difference if you took a listen. Two different flavors. Both enjoyable in their own way.

 

Isn't it more about whether a headphone is sub-bass or mid-bass centered?

 

For sure, my D5000 sounds more sub-bassy and the Ultrasone sounds more Mid-bassy.

 

The paper test would seem a good measure of the rumble (sub-bass) but not necessarily the slam (mid-bass hump?). Like, wouldn't a certain frequency in the sub-bass (30hz for example) cause the paper to move the most? Then you are just measuring the quantity of 30hz response of the headphone.


Edited by TWerk - 7/6/14 at 7:40am
post #1766 of 2456

My theory it could have a strong relevance whether it's mid or subbass skewed, if it's too subbass skewed the subbass masks the midbass/lower-midrange too much perhaps. The lower the frequencies the more power they also require so it could have to do with that too. Also I keep mastering hardstyle tracks for newcomers and I know if I give the bass a peakier/narrow bass boost it will sound punchier too, so it could be a mix of different things, like how focused/peaky the bass is (usually headphones that have a rolled-off response down deep, say after 40Hz or so) tend to show a "peakier" part in the 30Hz square wave measurement. Therefore I tend to look for bass curves such as the one Q40 and Signature DJs have that peaks around 80Hz or so and rolls off after about 40Hz and in the upper end after 150Hz or so, giving it a nice round, hill-shaped curve.


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 7/6/14 at 7:45am
post #1767 of 2456

Yes, moving the paper is the result of the headphone pressurizing as much air as it can.  The lower in hz with the higher in spl you play the headphone, the more the paper will rumble.  Headphones that have very high power handling and can take multiple watts of power, like planar magnetics, and are able to produce as much clean spl at the lowest of frequencies, like the LCD2, should be able to move the paper the most given tremendous amounts of power.  It's a test that measures only pure quantity.

 

 

Pro 900 slamming harder vs the D2000 likely has something to do with mid-bass vs sub-bass, but also note that Pro900 has lots of quantity to it as well-- a broadband 15db bass boost from mid to low bass.

post #1768 of 2456

Just for an example to note what I'm trying to say:

 

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwxnXB-fkWc

 

This track has a nice sustained "thump", or punch, or slam, or "impact" that pairs really well with the Pro 900. It sounds kind of like the hardstyle stuff that RPGWIZaRD talks about.

 

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l19y7iH1qAs

 

This track has more of a rumble, that pairs better with the D2000/D5000. Any dubstep song will rumble, actually. There isn't as much bass "punch" though, like the track above, that has a beat that smacks your face in.

 

Again, I think this is just mid vs. sub-bass we are talking about. Pro 900 is more about mid-bass, D5000 is more about sub-bass. I think the paper test would show that the D5000 has "more" bass than the Pro 900, but it just has more sub-bass which rumbles a sheet of paper more aggressively.

 

Therefore, it provides a way to measure the quantity of a particular frequency in sub-bass that will rattle the paper the most. This ignores the awesome mid-bass slam of a headphone like Pro 900, which might look like it doesn't have as much bass, but it's just a different kind of bass.

 

Not to mention, bass texture and overall bass resolution also matter. If the headphone sounds like a muddy mess, you might think it looks good according to the paper test, but it actually sounds like a bloated mess, or a fart cannon when you take a listen.  


Edited by TWerk - 7/6/14 at 8:03am
post #1769 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWerk View Post
 

Just for an example to note what I'm trying to say:

 

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwxnXB-fkWc

 

This track has a nice sustained "thump", or punch, or slam, or "impact" that pairs really well with the Pro 900. It sounds kind of like the hardstyle stuff that RPGWIZaRD was talking about.

 

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l19y7iH1qAs

 

This track has more of a rumble, that pairs better with the D2000/D5000. Any dubstep song will, actually. There isn't as much bass "punch" though, like the track above, that just has a beat that smacks your face in.

 

Again, I think this is just mid vs. sub-bass we are talking about. Pro 900 is more about mid-bass, D5000 is better in sub-bass.I think the paper test would show that the D5000 has "more" bass than the Pro 900, but it just has more sub-bass which rumbles a sheet of paper more aggressively.



The first is a UK hardcore / happy hardcore classified track I'd say. UK hardcore is like hardcore but much more happy, think of like mainstream house that's speed up with this very recognisable very mid-bass focused beat. I said hardstyle would have great focus on the punch which is maybe a bit inaccurate as it's usually got a good mix of both subbass and midbass at least in comparison to the above UK hardcore example, hardstyle has more subbass in it but it's not dubstep or rap where the point is to inject a ****load of audible subbass quantity to the listener, in hardstyle the subbass just serves to increase the impact of the beats. The bass in hardstyle usually peaks in the 50-70Hz or so range, the beats are also pitched a bit so it varies among which frequency it peaks at during the track.

Here's a quite new unreleased hardstyle track that is quite good example of how the midbass punch and subbass tail works together. In hardstyle we refer it to punch (the initial hit followed by a tail that is the subbass and then it also contains the signature hardstyle distortion part: the midfrequencies mixed into the beats to give the beats more of a character and this character sounds different for every producer)

 


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 7/6/14 at 8:17am
post #1770 of 2456
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWerk View Post

 

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l19y7iH1qAs

 

 

That right there through the Sig DJ just :deadhorse:the Shure 1540!

 

:L3000: 

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