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Creative Sound Blaster new series Z, Zx & ZxR - Page 63

post #931 of 2276

It's both a matter of Creative's ancient proprietary arrogance in not offering their tech to MS for a new API and MS taking matters in their own hands for easiest portability. 

And it's consoles where sound hasn't gone backwards, albeit only with exclusive titles like Killzone 2/3 for instance. 

 

No PC developer is forced to use FMOD or WWise. OpenAL is free, 

post #932 of 2276
But there's no incentive to use it. Plus I'm sure it isn't just straight forward. There's still programming for that specific api. And I'm sure licensing agreements or contractual obligations with fmod or xaudio don't help.

I'm sure the big publishers put pressure to use those instead.

Can't think of any other reasons they don't use openal.

Consoles haven't gone backward because they have stayed the same since 10 years ago. There really isn't anywhere they can go. Closed systems can't support much more than standard audio. PC has the option but devs and tech companies won't.
Edited by DJINFERNO806 - 8/28/13 at 12:33am
post #933 of 2276

SPU-based hardware audio in the PS3 is actually going further than any PC tech released until today. Sure it's a matter of dev interest and focus but "closed" isn't a strong argument here when there's power to utilize.

 

I was talking about PC only titles. Any other big title is mostly multiplatform and the Middleware license covers all supported platforms. Any OpenAL adventure would be a glorious extra. However not even a "glorious" dev like Valve actually bothers.

 

There isn't any strong base for hardware audio on the PC anyway. Many X-Fis got replaced by Xonars or died out, people often rely on onboard audio of their fully packed motherboards and many gamers often even just use USB-Headsets with Dolby Headphone. 

 

If we want hardware audio back we'd need a hardware base first. There's no information about the Core3D's hardware capabilities. And then we'd need a new API....who's going to provide it? OpenAL kinda failed...so Microsoft? Shouldn't they have announced it by then? I mean the Xbone One has a powerful dedicated audio chip for a good reason. Not only Kinect but also because devs got annoyed with certain X360 titles using a full core for audio.

post #934 of 2276
Do you have any info on the ps3s hardware audio? I'm kind of curious what it is because I was under the impression consoles just down mixed from fmod to lpcm or encoded to Dolby/DTS and called it a day. In which case if thats what they need an spu for then fair enough.

Well with Xbox one and ps4 hardware audio chips plus windows 8 hardware layer... Maybe something is on its way in the form of an api. Microsoft taking sweet time maybe.
post #935 of 2276

Yes, you are right, that's mostly the case. Only a few games got the real audio treat. Even if we have all the bling it's up to the designer to do it right.

 

There was a slide of Guerilla Games that covers it, especially wave tracing, but I could only found a later more superficial one. :[ Hardware Audio on the PS3 is basically using its SPUs, there's no dedicated hardware audio chip like the EMU20k2 but those SPUs are quite powerful (and more flexible) but sadly hard to program for. 

 

Killzone Shadow Fall is using the whole RAM of an XBOX 360 just for audio and it will sound glorious again.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-inside-killzone-shadow-fall

 

 

On another note: Did you (and others) notice how many games today make use of prebaked audio? Latest Splinter Cell for instance has ambience sounds that never change the direction. confused_face.gif

post #936 of 2276
Way too many games do that nowadays its sad. Lazy devs in my opinion who cater to console gamers and most still just use TV speakers. Hopefully that changes.
post #937 of 2276

Well, in over 17 years of my experience the same thing applies to PC. Hercules or Logitech Desktop speakers mostly and high end SLI gamers playing with razer headsets. Remember that not every game that had DS3D was also good sounding. Most standouts were games were Creative actively sent devs to the studios with sample cards. They haven't done that since the Bioshock 1 days. :[

 

The enormous headphone craze should arrive at the minds of the devs sooner or later. Sony's PULSE is playing with tactile feedback for instance. Something has to happen. 

 

I am wondering if DATASAT actually built a middleware. Tyll, obviously not being quite the gamer, had an audition over there with a movie and a shooter game. Of course there's more the wish than any actual facts that were provided but with binaural information stored in upcoming DTS-HD tracks they somehow must have thought about the same for games and go there with tech that is beyond virtualization as well. 

 

Man I'm desperate. biggrin.gif


Edited by Fegefeuer - 8/28/13 at 2:39am
post #938 of 2276

Changes? Kids that grow up listening to mp3 with earbuds, or even their cell's speakers, and watching Youtube videos all day long? It can only change to the worse with such a starting point.


It's like going back to the old C64 or Amiga days and start all over again.

post #939 of 2276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fegefeuer View Post

Well, in over 17 years of my experience the same thing applies to PC. Hercules or Logitech Desktop speakers mostly and high end SLI gamers playing with razer headsets. Remember that not every game that had DS3D was also good sounding.
Well, even though I have 2x GTX 680 in SLI, I have quite decent sound gear too. smily_headphones1.gif I've always had decent audio card ever since Sound Blaster Live! Value (before that I just had to be happy for what I had). I did neglect speaker/headphone department before for money reasons but that has not been the case in years.

OpenAL is dead. Can anyone find documentation for it?

Xbone audio processor:

Not sure if it can do any audio effect processing or if it's only for decoding/encoding.
Edited by Anarion - 8/28/13 at 9:01am
post #940 of 2276

Maybe MS will release a new xaudio spec and done a better job this time around.

post #941 of 2276
Quote:
Originally Posted by genclaymore View Post

Maybe MS will release a new xaudio spec and done a better job this time around.
I sure hope so. I mean, it shouldn't be impossible to make it hardware accelerateable and more importantly make it so that cards don't have to work with already mixed output.
post #942 of 2276

I'm not so much worried about the hardware-vs.-software processing aspect of things. Hell, one of my crazier thoughts in years past was to leverage modern GPGPU designs for sound calculations, like wavetracing and all that which took a big CPU hit back during Aureal's prime with A3D 2.0.

 

On that note, I have a feeling we'd be a LOT better off today had Aureal survived. I remember an article just before bankruptcy that was about them talking about how A3D 3.0 was becoming less of a proprietary API for Vortex chipset cards and more of a general-purpose audio middleware for games in much the same way FMOD and Wwise are now.

 

My real concern is that they're still treating us headphone users as second-class and thinking that a 5.1/7.1 speaker system is the best way to mix audio positionally when we all know that it could be far better than that, having experienced 3D audio over headphones done right. If they're smart, they'll take note of the increase in popularity of gaming headsets and particular audiophile cans used for gaming like the AD700, and make their headphone mixes something more than a one-dimensional left/right pan.

 

And on that note, I have the feeling that older PC games that used A3D, DirectSound3D, OpenAL, etc. weren't developed with headphone users in mind; the audio APIs they used just happened to enable proper headphone surround sound by circumstance, if the sound card were to support it. Besides, back in the late 1990s, Aureal was the only one really trying with binaural sound in gaming, shortly followed by Sensaura and their Virtual Ear; Creative took the surround speaker approach back then and didn't even bother with headphone surround until the introduction of the X-Fi series and CMSS-3D Headphone around 2004 or 2005.

post #943 of 2276
I couldn't care less about the hardware accelerated aspect nowadays. Modern CPUs can do so much via software and not even sweat. This isn't the p4 /athlon days anymore. I feel only x-fi elitists are the ones still on this and so condemn any other sound cards or any os other than xp. Time to move on.


But your right too much emphasis is put on premixed signals. Apparently everyone has a home theatre. Much better immersion with headphones.
Edited by DJINFERNO806 - 8/29/13 at 4:53am
post #944 of 2276

So... just wondering since I don't have the time to read 63 pages...

 

What's the general opinion on the Sound Blaster Z? Better than the Titanium HD? It sure is cheaper.

post #945 of 2276
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEALBoy View Post

So... just wondering since I don't have the time to read 63 pages...

What's the general opinion on the Sound Blaster Z? Better than the Titanium HD? It sure is cheaper.
Define better. In what way better?
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