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The Centrance HiFi M8 thread - Page 116

post #1726 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by FraGGleR View Post


Yes, it gets asked nearly every other page. No definitive answer yet. Very few phones are capable, and there is no consistency in how Android handles USB audio when it does. I don't think CEntrance should waste too much time on it. And this is coming from an Android user.

 

A miscalculation would leave a lot of potential sales out for Centrance. Base on a 2012 statistic, Android has the highest market share with 46.9% – the iPhone has 28.7%. Android is expected to continue the uptrend. Mike has already spent a lot of time on it, it makes sense to go just one more step and get that 46.9 % of the market share (which is really about selling more units and it could very well triple that sales), they can do it on a Version 2 release and an offer to upgrade the first release for $50/$100 bucks (like a service they offer for 1 ohm mod) and I know its not that hard as I saw a whole list of portable amps/Dac that already support Android 4.

 

And since it was mention that " it gets asked nearly every other page." Centrance should really sit up, notice it, as android is a force to be reckon with.

 

List of Dac/Amp that work with Android here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/633201/confirmed-list-of-usb-dacs-for-the-galaxy-s3-international-us-or-note-2

 

Statistic here:

http://ansonalex.com/infographics/smartphone-usage-statistics-2012-infographic/

 

A product that support multiple OS is a product that will propel itself into the future. Even hardcore company like Apple decided to yield to demands and release drivers to support window 7 on their MACs & oh boy, they sell like hot cakes.


Edited by Audiowood - 4/4/13 at 10:08am
post #1727 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrobe View Post

And part of the pre-order agreement is to not discuss the price...
Not trying to police the thread, just mentioning it.

Thanks for the heads up. No harm meant was just trying to be helpful. But rules is rules.deadhorse.gif

post #1728 of 4634
The miscalculation is precisely omitting "Android" is made up of many hardware and software combinations. You do not even have every manufacturer onboard with the latest os version, never mind a consistent usb audio support, and if there is, a consistent implementation

Contrast to Apple which is consistent. It is not just phones. All iDevices with 30 pin are predictable. All iDevices with Lighning are predictable. Something like a HiFi M8 is not mass-market. Supporting the triumvirate of iPods, iPads and iPhones makes commercial sense. What is the return on pouring endless resources to support endless Android configurations when even then the results may still be inconsistent?

P.S. This gets repeated every five pages
post #1729 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiowood View Post

 

A miscalculation would leave a lot of potential sales out for Centrance. Base on a 2012 statistic, Android has the highest market share with 46.9% – the iPhone has 28.7%. Android is expected to continue the uptrend. Mike has already spent a lot of time on it, it makes sense to go just one more step and get that 46.9 % of the market share (which is really about selling more units and it could very well triple that sales), they can do it on a Version 2 release and an offer to upgrade the first release for $50/$100 bucks (like a service they offer for 1 ohm mod) and I know its not that hard as I saw a whole list of portable amps/Dac that already support Android 4.

 

And since it was mention that " it gets asked nearly every other page." Centrance should really sit up, notice it, as android is a force to be reckon with.

 

List of Dac/Amp that work with Android here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/633201/confirmed-list-of-usb-dacs-for-the-galaxy-s3-international-us-or-note-2

 

Statistic here:

http://ansonalex.com/infographics/smartphone-usage-statistics-2012-infographic/

 

A product that support multiple OS is a product that will propel itself into the future. Even hardcore company like Apple decided to yield to demands and release drivers to support window 7 on their MACs & oh boy, they sell like hot cakes.

You know what Benjamin Disraeli said about statistics? "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."  What these articles say may be true, but then, are Android users most likely to buy high end audiophile equipment? My 'feeling' is a iPhone user is more likely too on a % basis. I'm just saying.

post #1730 of 4634

You can't really just quote user base statistics when talking about Android vs iPhone with regards to high fidelity audio. You have to take into account that the user base for Android phones is vastly different, I suspect the majority of users likely have little to no music on their phones and/or don't care much about high fidelity portable audio. On the flip side the iPhone being related to the iPod family of devices and with it's wide range of audio based accessories, they are likely to have a much higher percentage of users using it for that purpose.

 

Another thing to take into account is iDevices are much easier to design for because the range of devices is limited and those devices will typically all follow similar rules whereas there are hundreds of Android phones from different manufacturers all with differing specs and implementations making it much harder to design a reliable product for. That said, I was under the impression that if the Android device implements the audio correctly it should work with the M8, am I mistaken on that?

 

And I should note, I'm not saying CEntrance shouldn't bother with Android, I definitely think they should, I just wanted to point out that I don't think you can rely solely on user base statistics in this situation.

post #1731 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiowood View Post

 

A miscalculation would leave a lot of potential sales out for Centrance. Base on a 2012 statistic, Android has the highest market share with 46.9% – the iPhone has 28.7%. Android is expected to continue the uptrend. Mike has already spent a lot of time on it, it makes sense to go just one more step and get that 46.9 % of the market share (which is really about selling more units and it could very well triple that sales), they can do it on a Version 2 release and an offer to upgrade the first release for $50/$100 bucks (like a service they offer for 1 ohm mod) and I know its not that hard as I saw a whole list of portable amps/Dac that already support Android 4.

 

And since it was mention that " it gets asked nearly every other page." Centrance should really sit up, notice it, as android is a force to be reckon with.

 

 

I think you’re right!

 

I don’t see how the others can strive against the free and open source Android OS.

And Android relies on Linux for core system services such as driver model. Thus Android handles all the things that Linux is really good at such as a vast array of device drivers, which take the pain out of interfacing to standard peripheral hardware.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/30#post_8281264

 

In fact, existing CEntrance USB DACs, DACmini or DACport, can work with the stock Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphone using 24/192 capable USB Audio Recorder PRO app:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=635892416426250&set=a.634656613216497.1073741826.110473262301504&type=1&theater

 

"Samsung S3 > Centrance DACport > Final Audio Design Heaven VI, blissful!"

 

 

1000

 

 

A lot of stock Android devices, using USB Audio Recorder PRO or not, reportedly interworking with USB DAC are listed at the following link:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/2010#post_9317569

 

There are two ways to implement USB audio for Android:

1. USB audio driver, like free open source ALSA Linux USB audio driver, in the Android Linux kernel (native solution)

2. USB audio service at the user space, using the USB host driver

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/1260#post_9020197

 

 

 

 

A USB audio service is included in the USB Audio Recorder PRO music player.

 

The Galaxy S3, the best selling Android device, using USB Audio Recorder PRO can work with the CEntrance DACport, and the same Galaxy S3 using native USB audio driver can’t:

=>

apparently CEntrance engineers and Samsung engineers don’t have the same interpretation of some USB specification part.

Put in other words, the implementation of USB audio by Samsung developers is not enough tolerant to the USB specification than the one by USB Audio Recorder PRO developers.

 

As it is much easier to modify a software program of the Samsung device than the firmware of existing USB DAC, a fix of the Samsung native USB audio could be done using two USB traces:

. 1st USB trace capturing USB packets exchanging between a Galaxy S3 using USB Audio Recorder PRO and a DACport

. 2nd USB trace capturing USB packets exchanging between a Galaxy S3 using native USB audio and a DACport

 

I asked Samsung to improve their USB audio software:

http://developer.samsung.com/forum/board/thread/view.do?boardName=GeneralB&messageId=227582&startId=zzzzz~

 

It should be ideal if CEntrance forwards to Samsung the two mentioned USB traces as well as the USB descriptors of the DACport.

post #1732 of 4634

Ouch, running a class-A amp off an android/idevice is a sure way to hurt the battery.

post #1733 of 4634

USB specification & Android :

 

. When the Android device is in USB host mode, it acts as a USB host and powers the bus, i.e. a bus-powered USB DAC like the Graham Slee Bitzie USB DAC/amp:

http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/bitzie-usb-dac-external-soundcard.htm

 "USB DAC for Samsung Galaxy S3 Android Jellybean...7.5hrs continuous playing!"

 

 

. A USB DAC, like the Apex Glacier, can be configured in self-powered mode. It draws power from its own batteries.

 

 

. An Accessory Charger Adapter (ACA)-compliant Android device operating as a USB host is also able to charge at the same time.

It draws power from an external ACA-compliant battery, or from an ACA-compliant USB DAC.

ACA is described in the USB Battery Charging 1.2 specification.

The ACA software program is present in the Linux kernel source code of the Samsung Galaxy S3.

https://github.com/sgs3/GT-I9300_Kernel/blob/master/arch/arm/mach-exynos/p10-battery.c#L248

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/405#post_8748466

post #1734 of 4634

LOL, if we don't base on statistic, what then should we base on .. gut feelings?

post #1735 of 4634

Yeah, I think Centrance should go the extra mile and attempt to make it compatible with at least some of the flagship Android devices. There are already many other DAC/AMP's that work flawlessly with Android devices.

post #1736 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiowood View Post

LOL, if we don't base on statistic, what then should we base on .. gut feelings?

LOL.....you got a point there. I think that statistics are extremely important when making decisions and have to be factored in. However, in and of themselves are not to be 100% the deciding factor for a lot of decisions. 

 

My brain hurts blink.gif

post #1737 of 4634
Common sense did NOT get the best of me today! I ordered one of the B-stock Dacminis today. Black case and "1ohm" modification. It will be interesting to compare with the M8 when it arrives.

Needless to say, Michael and crew were extremely helpful. Thanks!
post #1738 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrobe View Post

Common sense did NOT get the best of me today! I ordered one of the B-stock Dacminis today. Black case and "1ohm" modification. It will be interesting to compare with the M8 when it arrives.

Needless to say, Michael and crew were extremely helpful. Thanks!

Man - I saw that.  I don't have enough liquid fun money at the moment to order one.  I am tempted to convert my M8 preorder to one - but I've waited long enough to want to stay the course.  I'm basically hoping the HIFI-M8 turns out to be a transportable, balanced DacMini.  Oh yeah, that pulls digital signal from an idevice...  That will work for my current needs.

post #1739 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiowood View Post

LOL, if we don't base on statistic, what then should we base on .. gut feelings?


You're only looking at one set of statistics which doesn't really provide the required data for this application. The information needs to be mined further to give a better view of how many Android users actually use their phones for audio playback, and of those, how many would potentially utilize a device like the M8.

 

The problem with Android is it has its larger user base because of market saturation and pricing which means the user demographic is more varied. Because of this there's likely to be a larger percentage of Android users who don't utilize the features much beyond that of a basic phone. Another factor is, I don't think Android phones are looked upon as devices for audio playback in the same way as an iPhone which essentially evolved from the iPod and utilizes the same audio accessories as the iPod. That means the percentage of users using the iPhone for more serious audio playback is likely to be much higher than that of users of Android devices. I don't have specific numbers, these are educated guesses, but it does suggest to me that simply stating user base statistics isn't accurate enough.

post #1740 of 4634
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryvadeum View Post

Yeah, I think Centrance should go the extra mile and attempt to make it compatible with at least some of the flagship Android devices. There are already many other DAC/AMP's that work flawlessly with Android devices.

I think Android makers should go the extra mile to be compatible with the M8. There are already many devices that will work flawlessly with the M8.

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