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Why not a Dual BA from Etymotic? - Page 10

post #136 of 143
Still very interested in opinions upon the subject. What would the advantages single driver design in an iem be? What is the advantage of loudspeakers with single driver, and is it the same story? someone might lighten up this subject.....
post #137 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulogin View Post

 

Not sure about that. The people at the home-made-iem thread told me that there's no such a thing as individual tuning. For example, BA placement in relation to the shell/bore does not matter. That is to say, no matter how the BA drivers are placed, it still sounds the same. 


This is totally, completely wrong--at least according to the owner of a custom iem company (an audio engineer with 30 years experience) that I spoke to. That BA placement in the shell makes a huge difference, particular for certain parts of the frequency spectrum, is something that is no secret to the folks who actually design custom iems.

 

P.S., please don't attach Heir Audio to this sort of ignorance. They are a good company and run by an audiologist who is very aware of these issues, which you would know if you looked at his work.


Edited by Kunlun - 8/12/12 at 2:52pm
post #138 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulogin View Post

 

If the study lacks scientific rigor because it used only 47 participants, then how many participants are enough? 470? 4,700? I would say that even a sample of 470,000 Americans would not be enough if the purpose is descriptive, because it does not represent Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, etc. etc. But, if the purpose is experimental, 47 participants are very good enough (provided other things are properly done).

 

+ Rep. This response is more educational, because it explains rather than simply throwing out jargon.

 

Still have a question though (sorry for the digression): If driver placement makes inaudible or at most minor difference (provided the configuration is not too off), what is the advantage of custom, then? I read you writing on Spyro's page that custom is better because "the extension on both ends is also much easier to feel/identify". How so?

 

Got it. Not April fool.

 

I take it you didn't read my follow-up post to the '47 subjects is not enough' post... the thing to keep in mind is the goal and scope of a study, and whether the chosen subjects/methodology are suitable for testing the hypothesis in a rigorous manner. The goal of the study was to evaluate whether measured mannikin responses correlated well with the measured responses of real human ears (with in-ear microphones). This type of study requires constant reevaluation to include an ever larger and all-encompassing population of test subjects. For pure scientific pursuit, it would be interesting to see which ear/pinnna simulators are more suitable for which populations. In the clinical setting, I see patients with all sorts of different types of ear shapes and with a variety of conditions. To be defined as having hearing loss, 'deaf' people don't just have sensorineural hearing loss of the inner ear, or conductive hearing loss of the ear canal/ossicles/etc. Patients with malformed pinnae can also be classified as hearing disabled. There are people with microtia (very small ears) that can have problems with proper hearing because of the, but they have perfectly fine sensorineural hearing (although most do have problems with the entire ear, since it is a congenital malformation), thus it may be important for the hearing aid they fit to have normal diffuse field equalized response. So, do they want to hear things like the typical Caucasian, or Asian, or any other ethnicity? While I'm sure these responses are extremely close to each other (we are the same species, after all), there will be population differences. 

 

Again, this discussion really isn't important to the true topic at hand. In fact, the question of whether customs are better is also not really relevant to the 'why not a dual BA from Etymotic' discussion.

 

But to answer your question, I wouldn't say that driver placement makes an 'inaudible or at most minor difference' --- these small differences add up. A TWFK placed at the very front of the shell sounds quite different from one placed at the back of the shell, but they're not differences that you would immediately hear. They're most apparent in the harmonics, and certain other peaks that may be absorbed by the long length of the sound tube.

 

I don't remember writing on Spyro's page, but I do agree with that statement. I would say the biggest difference is perceived isolation. There may be advantages in terms of circuit design enabling drivers' performance, but I can't be sure of what those advantages are at the moment, so I don't want to comment.

post #139 of 143

Starting to talk in circles here but I find no advantage to a single BA driver over a multi.  NONE.

 

The single drivers I do like are the hybrid moving armatures like GR10 but even they have their problems.  They tend to be more grainy and less liquid sounding and the realism of the bass weight is just not there.  But that is kind of nit-picking.  They handle the spectrum quite well.

 

On the multi-drivers can someone be VERY specific (let's say W3) of what doesn't sound right about it in a multi-driver?

post #140 of 143

99% of headphones have single drivers, and the best ones accomplish better sound than any IEM. No second, third and fourth driver needed. The only reason speakers have more is to create a whole room full of sound. Why would an IEM need more drivers? Maybe Ety is right and it is mostly marketing BS. Just food for though...


Edited by robm321 - 8/15/12 at 9:26pm
post #141 of 143

I just find it difficult to take sides here because both sides seem quite informative and have good points. I like both Single and Multi-driver IEMs, simple as that. At times I feel like one driver is all you need and at times I feel Multi-drivers work wonderfully well together. I just find 3 or more drivers a bit of an overkill, even two drivers at times

post #142 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by robm321 View Post

99% of headphones have single drivers, and the best ones accomplish better sound than any IEM. No second, third and fourth driver needed. The only reason speakers have more is to create a whole room full of sound. Why would an IEM need more drivers? Maybe Ety is right and it is mostly marketing BS. Just food for though...

 

To be fair, the best headphones have drivers larger than 50mm.  Until I got my HD800 rig all sorted I preferred my customs over every headphone I had ever heard.  I always liked my ES5 more than the LCD2 r.1.  The UERM is better than 98% of the headphones out there.  There's only 4 headphones in existence I prefer to my customs.  (HD800/009/HE90/HE5)  The speaker claim isn't 100% correct either, I can't think of too many speakers w/ multiple full-range drivers.  They are components crossed over to minimize distortion and cone break up in their specified range.  That's just pure unavoidable physics wrt cones and speakers.  


Edited by Anaxilus - 8/15/12 at 11:40pm
post #143 of 143

Yeah, my statement was oversimplified because I really don't have an opinion. I like whatever it takes to make something sound good. What I do reject is the idea that a single driver is holding an IEM back. The Etys do what they were designed to do well. And the reason they have lasted and are still desired are because of that. The $700+ customs that have multiple drivers take the soundstage, etc. up a notch and that could be because of the multiple drivers, or because of the design, who knows. I guess it makes a good discussion, but at the end of the day, I don't really think of how many drivers an IEM has, I think how does the end product sounds and there are examples of both mutliple driver IEMs sounding great and single drivers sounding great. 

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