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Fire Phoenix DAC-02 / the odac->o2 desktop rival - Page 11

post #151 of 243
Thread Starter 

The Bravo won't power the DT880 / 600 at all, you'll need the objective2 or or the desktop amplifier I linked, a Beyerdynamic amplifier designed for 600 ohm's, that's a little more suitable don't you think.

post #152 of 243
The Bravo drives the HE-400 nicely and sounds great together for my tastes. Very open and great bass. I can crank it to a level that's plenty loud without distortion. The HE-500 doesn't sound as good and distorts at louder volumes.
post #153 of 243
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by HaVoC-28 View Post

 

I used OPA627 on STX ... (4*OPA627AU for I/V Section) And 2* OPA627BP for Buffer smile.gif , and Used OPA627BP on m-stage and Firestone Audio sptifire MK2 , and i always had the impression that OPA627 improved things, but hey no level matching was done . Peraphs OPA627 as an influence in output volume ... don't know not a tech . 

 

But after level matching , fufufu , OPA627 OPA what ever , DAC A , DAC B , all the same . I tryed and i am now much more closer than NwAvGuy than before ... I changed my methodology with systematiquely doing level matching , and having two piece of the same hardware to fast swapps ... if i hadn't read NwAVGuy blog i still think that DACs and opas had a sound ... but it's not like i believe erverything he said ... my amps all sounded different . 

 

And for OPA627 ya their is similarities in what people say about it , but not always ... , and as i said up , peraphs OPA627 as a influence and output volume wich means to this general consensus about describing how it sound . 

 

Their is no perfect answer , just experiment , and judge by yourself . Some time it will have similarites to what other people constat , some times not . 

 

 

Havoc, a lot of components in audio "sound the same".

 

For example I bought an Oyaide LOD for $60 and can't hear any real difference.  A couple pages ago I compared my USB->COAX bridge which costs ~$150 to the $5 internal USB chip in my DAC (CM102), and concluded they sound pretty much the same.  So why are components sometimes exactly the same to me and sometimes different?  However, perhaps someone with $2000 speakers in an anechoic room, would much prefer (or notice) the sound difference of the $150 USB->COAX bridge.

 

These forums are full of people like you saying that with time-aligned, volume-matched, fast switching there is no difference.

 

It's not true that audio memory disappears within 0.1 seconds or a few seconds, that is only true for frequency response and very slight changes in volume, for example like +-0.1dB at 4000Hz.  After a few seconds it's most likely impossible to hear deviance within 1dB, unless you had trained for it a lot.

 

Now this fact is not very important since the amplifiers and DAC's we are interested in all measure exactly flat in frequency response and extension, if they are performing correctly.

 

So what we are listening for in the difference is more like THD+N, IMD, speed, authority & intricate differences in the design and sine wave delivery which we are not aware of, however they present themselves in the audio / music with perceptions like resolution, sharpness and naturalness, just like you would see in the quality of an image on a TV.

 

Now if one DAC has a nicer square wave, less ringing, higher oversampling and so on than the other DAC, this doesn't show up in frequency response in your fast switching tests, audio is different than visual!  It will however show up in the delivery of the sine waves you are listening to, which will define the 'character' of the DAC, just like they will define the character of the metal in a flute, or the player of the flute, which I don't think you'll hear in your fancy volume-matched fast switching either!!

 

 

What you need to do is use your AD2000 and try to directly identify your DVD player and DAC blind, you have someone switch for you, not fast... just play the song from the start, on X versus Y, while you are not looking, volume matched, and then you directly identify which DAC is playing, X or Y, repeat 20 times.

 

If that sounds 'more difficult' to you, then can I ask, if the only place (in theory) where you can hear a difference between DAC's, amplifiers, speakers, cables etc. is in fast switching ABX, then what is the point?!  You don't listen to music or audio like that, you should try a more natural test.

 

 

By the way how come there are no successful blind tests on cables, when they very often measure different, in frequency deviation? ---> http://en.goldenears.net/KB_Columns/1414, http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?document_srl=1301

post #154 of 243
Thread Starter 

By the way, let's say even if all modern, fairly high-end audio equipment sounds exactly the same or within 1%, then all I'm actually doing with this thread is recommending equipment which sounnds the same as ODAC/O2 for a lot cheaper... (you know... like your DVD player...) ...

 

NwAv failed to explain why we shouldn't use the Clip+ for all listening and why the ODAC is actually better, his measurements of the Clip+ were all perfect, you know...............

post #155 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

 

 

Havoc, a lot of components in audio "sound the same".

 

What you need to do is use your AD2000 and try to directly identify your DVD player and DAC blind, you have someone switch for you, not fast... just play the song from the start, on X versus Y, while you are not looking, volume matched, and then you directly identify which DAC is playing, X or Y, repeat 20 times.

 

By the way how come there are no successful blind tests on cables, when they very often measure different, in frequency deviation? ---> http://en.goldenears.net/KB_Columns/1414, http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?document_srl=1301

Well ^^ i not only do "fast" switching , let explain the difference kind of tryal that i have done ? 

 

For DACs i have a little switch , that is totally inaudible when you press the different switch , so i can't perceive if a switch is actionned or not . 

 

Alone i synchronised playing ODAC , NFB-17.2 etc , level matched i played an entire CD and time to time i switched the source ... i didn't perceived any difference , even focusing in a start of a track etc etc . 

 

Peraphs there is a placebo effect that make it sound all the same . 

 

But well i even asked a friend to help i was not on the same room (just behind the door) , and for an hour he played with switch changed  tracks etc etc the only thing that i was able to distinguish is when he was playing with tracks , i never noticied a single switching beetween sources ...  If DAcs where different i should have been hable to hear at least one time switching ...

 

Again i never said that All DACs sounded the same , i just tryed a little few , but the result was the same , conception of this DACs and parts are very different so it's why i am tending to the think that well built DAcs sound very similar if not the same at volume matched ...

 

My protocoles aren't exactly top notch , but hey for me it's not that bad .

 

And i am not particularely advicing ODAC or O2 ... depending on needs etc . 

 

As i said i didn't tryed all DACs , for the transport thing the same , but EMU 0404 , Auzen Forte , my motheboard s/pdif out , TE7022 or TE8802 again no noticeable effect .

 

Why ODAC ? because it's simple , self powered , no drivers , relatively small , and their is mesurements ... mesurements are just a part of the thing yes but for some it can be a relief (Some like a fency case , some like good mesurements tongue_smile.gif) ... just knowing that it mesure goods for some make them feel good . And i am not using my DVD player because i don't want to bother with CDs ... prefer using my computer as player rip my CD and keep them safe . 

 

But it's not definitive conclusions for me peraphs i will have oppurtunity to try different DACs etc and peraphs i will hear a difference , at this time i didn't find it yet .

 

At this time i saved a lot of money and i am happy with my setup , it's the most important fact . I agree that ODAC / O2 aren't that Cheap and that their is setups that could be cheaper and doing about the same djob , but well with nwavguy i have this mesurements that feel me ok tongue.gif for me it's like a fancy box . V800 is even better but i don't know if i willl hear any difference and it's expensive but peraphs later i will give at try and conclude , if it's better or not . 

 

And for the Zip Clip+ thing ,the funny thing is that i had the impression that it was warmer than my actual galaxy S 3.6 (but it's fine for me as it is) .

 

Well for the cable thing U = RI , if impedance is not the same it can have an effect yes ... decently build cable should have as less impedance as possible , on golden ear thing (just the name is biased IMO) they are just demonstrating U = RI ... 

 

I don't know what much i can say , but thanks any way for this intersting conversation ^^ 

 

This is just my impressions with my flawed test protocols smile.gif 


Edited by HaVoC-28 - 11/8/12 at 10:52pm
post #156 of 243
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by HaVoC-28 View Post

 

 

Well ^^ i not only do "fast" switching , let explain the difference kind of tryal that i have done ? 

 

For DACs i have a little switch , that is totally inaudible when you press the different switch , so i can't perceive if a switch is actionned or not . 

 

Alone i synchronised playing ODAC , NFB-17.2 etc , level matched i played an entire CD and time to time i switched the source ... i didn't perceived any difference , even focusing in a start of a track etc etc . 

 

Peraphs there is a placebo effect that make it sound all the same . 

 

But well i even asked a friend to help i was not on the same room (just behind the door) , and for an hour he played with switch changed  tracks etc etc the only thing that i was able to distinguish is when he was playing with tracks , i never noticied a single switching beetween sources ...  If DAcs where different i should have been hable to hear at least one time switching ...

 

Again i never said that All DACs sounded the same , i just tryed a little few , but the result was the same , conception of this DACs and parts are very different so it's why i am tending to the think that well built DAcs sound very similar if not the same at volume matched ...

 

My protocoles aren't exactly top notch , but hey for me it's not that bad .

/

 

 

Can you explain the switch some more?  What kind of switch?  How much does it cost?  What does it look like?

post #157 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

 

 

Can you explain the switch some more?  What kind of switch?  How much does it cost?  What does it look like?

http://www.audiophonics.fr/audiophonics-selecteur-source-passif-alps-vers-p-6400.html

 

Something like that DIY by a friend . Parts for around 30€ (but not exactly as the linked one) .It worked fine so i didn't bothered much about it . Peraphs it's flawded but well ,i also used my Luxman LV91 for tests and result was the same (but for this one i known when source was switched , but the sound remane the same , at least i had this impression) .

 

Again it's not a perfect setup at all . And many will find that sources will difers so ...

post #158 of 243
Thread Starter 

Wow 49 Euro, it's good you're experimenting though. =)

 

 

Here is another one - http://www.ebay.com/itm/RC-RCA-S-Video-Audio-Video-Game-Selector-Switcher-4-Way-/220772216585

 

 

I hope there is no D/A or amplification hiding inside of it it is a mystery

post #159 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

Wow 49 Euro, it's good you're experimenting though. =)

 

 

Here is another one - http://www.ebay.com/itm/RC-RCA-S-Video-Audio-Video-Game-Selector-Switcher-4-Way-/220772216585

 

 

I hope there is no D/A or amplification hiding inside of it it is a mystery

Ya their is selector for cheap , and even the DIY is a bit pricey for what it s . 

 

Experimenting is a fun part of this hobby i think , but time to time only tongue_smile.gif

post #160 of 243
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by HaVoC-28 View Post

 

 

Ya their is selector for cheap , and even the DIY is a bit pricey for what it s . 

 

Experimenting is a fun part of this hobby i think , but time to time only tongue_smile.gif

 

(sorry for the long post, I felt like writing and I'll copy-paste it somewhere else later)

 

 

Here is my answer for you why your experiment for slight sonic differences may have failed in theory.

 

Whilte it's true that a volume-matched, time-aligned fast switch is necessary for +-0.5dB volume changes, in total volume or at a specificy frequency (frequency response, SPL at xxxxHz etc.), when trying to decipher tone quality or tone colour, humans can automatically be victim to an illusion called perceptual constancy.

 

It's an instant process in our subconscious, which can make light and sound look / sound constant in our mind, when in reality the light on our retina, or signals in our auditory nerve are in flux.

 

This is due to that we are more efficient in sorting out constant patterns (like an apple is red) instead of very fine differences all the time (an apple is 50 shades of red) since that takes up unnecessary visual activity.

 

So when you have the music playing, your subconscious mind is 'locked' into the colour of the apple in the sound, then if the colour of the apple suddenly changes 1% you can't see / hear it!  That 1% difference in your auditory nerve was immediately rejected with a subconscious filter, since if we heard +-1% differences in tone all the time, it would become a difficult task to focus.

 

Visually this happens to you all the time, your mind is deciding on the visual patterns and keeping them static, even if they're in flux.

 

 

You see here, check out this lamp, is it brighter than your computer screen?

 

File:Bright light lamp.jpg

 

 

It looks brighter than your computer screen, except you know that's impossible, so it must be an illusion right?  Now change the brightness on your PC monitor, does it take your mind 0.1 seconds to process the new brightness levels, or is it automatic in the central nervous system, 0.00000000 seconds? 

 

 

XYZ perception...

 

SizeConstancyBig.jpg

 

 

XYZ real!

 

SizeConstancyok.jpg

 

 

Here is a sound example I found, of pipe organs changing ~10dB in volume at different locations, and the perceived difference is zero - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10923901

 

 

So the point is there are two phenonema in audio / visual.  One is the "placebo effect" like if you buy fake medicine (sugar pills) and you think you feel different, or you trick yourself and you do feel different at a chemical level.  The other is the "constance" effect (skip to 7).

 

If someone buys a $500 HDMI cable, the placebo effect can make them think the picture is improved, since their mind decides so, maybe they even feel happier at a chemical level! =)

 

Hence...

 

1.  There is no electrical, chemical or physical difference in the new component, so it's an illusion (unless it's spiritual... like it's haunted).

 

2.  There is an electrical / chemical / physical difference in the new component.

 

2.05.  Does the difference have any theory, does the difference appear scientific like a pursuit for higher quality, or does it appear like marketing?

 

2.1.  It measures identical.

 

2.2.  Is the measurement system 100% exact, total, evidenced?  Yes/No.

 

Usually this is "No", the measurement system is typically limited, or the measurements were performed in X specific situation, where they will differ in Y situation, such as in a different electronic circuit or with different acoustics etc.

 

It seems like people some people prefer "Yes".  As an example, see Rightmark Audio Analyzer, you can see it's used all over the internet, with the tone that it measures everything - while it very much doesn't.  They just like this mindset or they like measurements, since they want to feel secure or feel above subjectivity, i.e. these are emotional convictions, such as elitism.

 

3. The component measures different (see 2.2).

 

3.1.  Are the differences in the component within human perception?  Yes/No.  This is a pretty complicated topic!, you just need to decide for yourself.

 

Let's use visual processing as an example once more, and reflexes.

http://xcorr.net/2011/11/20/whats-the-maximal-frame-rate-humans-can-perceive/

- http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm,

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk

 

Is 60Hz refresh rate at the 'limit' of human perception?  No it's just 'fine' for consumer-level entertainment.  In reality, you can see higher than that.  Another example is the Hertz rate of neon lights may not be perceivable at a conscious level, however your subconscious can actually 'see' the high Hertz rate in neon lights, I'll assume this is unnecessary, confusing information (similar to the shades of red in the apple). 

 

3.1.2.  Do you just want entertainment and nice performance, or are the limits of quality and perception important to you?  In other words, do you just want to eat apples, or do you want the highest quality apples?

 

That's up to you.  Do you want a basic kitchen knife, or a super sharp kitchen knife for xx price?  Do you want basic sneakers, or athletic sprinting shoes for xx price?  I'm sure that depends on who you are.

 

4.  Look at statistics and academic papers, well these are usually quite ever-changing and they are very limited in audio compared to other fields IME.  See 2.2, people like to use academic papers to feel secure and feel above subjectivity, they are emotional convicts.  It's just like using RMAA or more expensive audio equipment with an assertiveness of complete fact.

 

5.  Listen for yourself.

 

6.  Test yourself.

 

7.  Keep in mind you need to practice, and there are illusions within perception, not only illusions of difference, there are illusions of sameness.

 

 

My hypothesis, if you really want to spend xxx.xx on a kitchen knife, like in high quality audio, you will hear a difference in DAC's.  (I recommend the no-name, non-commmercial ones since they're cheaper so more people can access them and enjoy them).

 

The available testing is...

 

1.  Limited, since people don't have the time, sophistication, or interest.

 

2.  Flawed, due to the lack of sophistication in the tests, and the perceptual illusions of sameness / constancy in tonal quality / difference / colour.

 

 

Now some people will say "He's just desperate to defend his delusions" well no, I don't actually like expensive equipment or marketing in audio, I like cheap DIY level so everyone can hear it, I'm just trying to defend the truth. =)

 

Some people will defend the null hypothesis, i.e. "until the case is evidenced, it's not valid or true".  Yes, that also applies to a murderer in a courtroom though, a lack of evidence a lack of truth.

 

See you.

post #161 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

By the way, let's say even if all modern, fairly high-end audio equipment sounds exactly the same or within 1%, then all I'm actually doing with this thread is recommending equipment which sounnds the same as ODAC/O2 for a lot cheaper... (you know... like your DVD player...) ...

 

NwAv failed to explain why we shouldn't use the Clip+ for all listening and why the ODAC is actually better, his measurements of the Clip+ were all perfect, you know...............

 

From memory, no, no they weren't.

post #162 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by temporaryname View Post

From memory, no, no they weren't.

 

Besides, measurements don't tell the whole story, only part of it. 

post #163 of 243
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by temporaryname View Post
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

his measurements of the Clip+ were all perfect, you know...............

 

From memory, no, no they weren't.

 

SanDisk Clip+ in Prism Sound dScope III

 

Frequency response = "ruler flat"

THD+N = 0.055%

IMD = 0.03%

Jitter = inaudible

Square-wave at 1kHz = "very impressive"

Channel seperation = 50dB

Dynamic range = 89.7dB (RMAA)

Pitch = 1.002,449 kHz

post #164 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

 

SanDisk Clip+ in Prism Sound dScope III

 

Frequency response = "ruler flat"

THD+N = 0.055%

IMD = 0.03%

Jitter = inaudible

Square-wave at 1kHz = "very impressive"

Channel seperation = 50dB

Dynamic range = 89.7dB (RMAA)

Pitch = 1.002,449 kHz

 

I remember reading that it had higher distortion and noise floor than the iPod it was being compared to. That and the fact that it won't be able to drive all headphones. 

 

NwAvGuy failed to explain why everyone should use a clip+ because that's not his recommendation. It's a silly preposition to say that if some of the measurements are good we should use that system for everything. No one would think that.

post #165 of 243
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by temporaryname View Post

Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

 

 

SanDisk Clip+ in Prism Sound dScope III

 

Frequency response = "ruler flat"

THD+N = 0.055%

IMD = 0.03%

Jitter = inaudible

Square-wave at 1kHz = "very impressive"

Channel seperation = 50dB

Dynamic range = 89.7dB (RMAA)

Pitch = 1.002,449 kHz

 

I remember reading that it had higher distortion and noise floor than the iPod it was being compared to. That and the fact that it won't be able to drive all headphones. 

 

NwAvGuy failed to explain why everyone should use a clip+ because that's not his recommendation. It's a silly preposition to say that if some of the measurements are good we should use that system for everything. No one would think that.

 

 

I asked him (around the time the O2 was new) which portable media player to use with the objective2, and he said you'll never need anything better than the Clip+, unless you want more power.

 

So yes, that was his recommendation.

 

I wrote the THD+N spec above, the Clip+ is 0.055%, the iPod was 0.0045%. 

 

All of the Clip+ measurements fell outside of audible limits, and he is using ~$5000 professional hardware just FYI.

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