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Which Summit-Fi Headphone For Me? - Page 4

post #46 of 178
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

Any word on what integrated amp you're getting?

 

A used Marantz PM6004 (credit to Magick Man, for the suggestion!)  It barely cost TOO much more than the Trends for a pretty nice 2ch integrated.  No it's not the Aleph that Elysian suggested, but I suspect it'll be a great pairing at least initially.   It may not be "end-game" but for the money, so long as I can figure out what to do with the massive chassis and presumably wicked heat it throws, it should be a good place to figure out what I want out of an HE-6 rig, or maybe I'll end up being satisfied enough to not feel a need to upgrade.  Past experience with Marantz amps tells me I like the sound at least with speakers.  They're generally a touch warm.

 

Only catch is it has no power-direct input to bypass the pre, so I can't feed the Lyr pre-out into it for my tubes, but I suspect going all SS with HE-6 is ideal anyway. It just strikes me as the kind of sound signature that prefers SS given my familiarity of the different effect of SS vs. tube with HE-400.  I like tube with HE-400 more, but I'm betting I'd like SS with HE-6 more.  But it would have been a nice option to have.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysian View Post

Get a used HE-6 and Trends TA-10.2SE if you want to keep it around $1k.  If you're looking closer to $2k, go for an HE-6 and Aleph 3 or 30 (good condition ones go for about $900-1200) if you can control volume through a good quality preamp or DAC volume control.  The Trends has built-in volume control, so DAC -> Trends -> HE-6 is a great compact desktop rig.  The Aleph will give better dynamics, detail resolution, bass slam, and transparency.  If you listen to a lot of classical and jazz as you mentioned earlier, I'd recommend the Aleph.  Don't get the LCD-3 without demoing it first.  A lot of people here think it's the bees knees, but a lot of people whose ears I generally trust were less than impressed with the LCD-3.  The LCD-3 did not impress me at all.

 

Another option which a lot of people have said is to go straight to stats.  You can get great classical and jazz without breaking the bank but I'm leery about bass-heavy electronica without confirming that you have a good headphone and amp pairing.  The SR007 is a great do-it-all headphone.

 

HE-6 on the way!  Some very persuasive HE-6 fans convinced me it was more in line with the direction I wanted to go with my summit rig.  If it were my "every day listening rig" I probably would have picked LCD-3 for it's easier-on-the-ears presentation.  But it's not my every day listening rig, that's already well established for me: Lyr + HD650/HE-400/D5k.  This is my special treat rig, and HE-6 (or stats) sounds like a great choice for that.  I went the HE-6 route.  It cost a bit more than the Koss and a bit less than the Stax routes and I suspect I'll like the voicing more than either (And I know I'll like the round earcups more than the rectangles the others offer, dismal as HFM ergonomics are, at least I'm familiar with it wink.gif )

 

I'll definitely keep the Aleph suggestions in mind.  I first need to get familiar with the can on a modest piece before I can think of where I want to go for end-game with it.  There's a LOT of stereo gear out there, new and old, tube and SS, monoblock and all.  No need to rush into more expensive pieces.   And I suspect the Marantz will be a lot nicer than the Trends, cute as it is, the power supply alone should be an audible difference. 

 

SR007/009 I'm certain I'd love....but they come at prices I'm certain I don't biggrin.gif

post #47 of 178

Hi All,

 

I am having a bit of a dilema.  I currently have grado SR80i and HD25-1 II.  I mostly listen to HD25.  I do not even listen to the grado because it is horrible for classical.  I listen to all types of music and want a phone that plays all types very well.  I have searched the forums extensively but so many opinions that I cannot decide what to try.  I want to do a decent step up.  Under $1000 for phones.  Here is the rest of my criteria if you could help.

 

1.  Home use

2.  Could be open or closed

3.  Very good in all genres but excels especially in rock

4.  Pairs well with an amp

5.  Recommendations on amp to pair with the suggested phones. 

 

I have been looking for 2 months now and cannot decide.  I have been leaning towards the LCD-2 but not sure I would get the punch from rock music.

 

Sincerely,

Larry

post #48 of 178

I was told to post here because my price range is $1000 and less.  I am leaning toward the LCD2 but wanted to know if there is anything that is cheaper with a portable amp that would be a really good step up from the HD25-1 II with Fiio E11.  Strictly at home is fine so open or closed is fine but it would be nice to get a step up that I can take on go as well as blow me away at home.

post #49 of 178

How many watts do the Marantz PM6004 put into the 50ohm HE-6? confused.gif I've been looking at that amp among others myself too to power the HE-6 instead of the Lyr.

post #50 of 178
Very nice suggestion - was gonna point you towards Marantz myself. redface.gif
post #51 of 178
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltucker305 View Post

I was told to post here because my price range is $1000 and less.  I am leaning toward the LCD2 but wanted to know if there is anything that is cheaper with a portable amp that would be a really good step up from the HD25-1 II with Fiio E11.  Strictly at home is fine so open or closed is fine but it would be nice to get a step up that I can take on go as well as blow me away at home.

The LCD sounds like an excellent choice from that to me, not from experience but from my own research. A bit cheaper and equally good with all genres and rock would be the HE-500 and HE-400. I have HE-400 myself and they're spectacular as an every day headphone for all genres. The're a bit dark, but bit more v-shaped than the more linear LCD-2. A lot of audiophiles favor bright for classical but I think HE-400 has good weight and tonal balance behind them and personally think they do justice to a small concert hall for classical, but many would suggest them for rock. They can be powered well with a portable amp if needed, but they reward a beefier amp like Lyr and O2 very well too. I like them on tubes, but that's preference
HE-500 is said to be smoother, a bit warmer ot as bassy, but overall fairly similar aside from the mids bump. Those are both excellent options and cost a little less than LCD-2, but it's hard to go wrong with LCD-2 either.! smily_headphones1.gif
post #52 of 178
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZorgDK View Post

How many watts do the Marantz PM6004 put into the 50ohm HE-6? confused.gif  I've been looking at that amp among others myself too to power the HE-6 instead of the Lyr.

45wpc 8ohm, According to Magick Man's calculations (and I'm sure he's spot on) it should be 8-10 into 50ohm. And I assue that the 50ohm is under-rated. The prototype was 60 I believe, so I bet the production HE-6 is closer to 55 if you were to measure it. HE-400 impedances measure all over the place in reality. So in all liklihood I'd say a REAL output of 7-9w into HE-6. Just a little guess work based on Magicks numbers and a working knowledge of HiFIMan figure fudging (Hint: HE-500 weighs 150g or so more than the spec smily_headphones1.gif )
post #53 of 178
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

Very nice suggestion - was gonna point you towards Marantz myself. redface.gif

Great headphonius sumpremii think alike apparetntly! wink.gif
post #54 of 178
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltucker305 View Post

I was told to post here because my price range is $1000 and less.  I am leaning toward the LCD2 but wanted to know if there is anything that is cheaper with a portable amp that would be a really good step up from the HD25-1 II with Fiio E11.  Strictly at home is fine so open or closed is fine but it would be nice to get a step up that I can take on go as well as blow me away at home.

Also a poartable amp will probably not shine superior with ny of the higher end cans, but many of the higher end cans will sound good on a portable. If you want the best sound it's best (or cheapest) to go with a nice desktop amp. But if you're lookng for a portable amp better than E11, O2 is quasi-portable and does wel with most of the mentioned cans. More exotic stuff like the AlogoRythm Solo I believe has an aux input other than iPod. HE-400 is said to do well with E11 and E17, but it'll probably do better with bigger amps. I like it on O2 for example, even though that's also semi portable. My preference for HE-400 though is still the Lyr and the tube sound for them

You may want to pick a headphone first, then figure out what to amp it with. Many of the cans you'll find asize from tthe big crazy power eaters like HE-6, HE-5LE, HE-4, HD800 (not power hungry but amp choosy along with HD6xx) will all work on a portable amp if needed, but most shine with desktop amps just because most desktop amps tend to be a little better designed since they don't need to make sacrifices for size/weight. O2, though ultra analytical is a great compromise of size/weight/portability and can run off internal rechargable 9v batteries. But if you're restricting yourself to portable, there have got to be more portable setups than Audeze, HifFiman, and most other headphones in the $~1k range. Unless you want Ultrasone...but I doubt it from your music choices.
post #55 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

45wpc 8ohm, According to Magick Man's calculations (and I'm sure he's spot on) it should be 8-10 into 50ohm. And I assue that the 50ohm is under-rated. The prototype was 60 I believe, so I bet the production HE-6 is closer to 55 if you were to measure it. HE-400 impedances measure all over the place in reality. So in all liklihood I'd say a REAL output of 7-9w into HE-6. Just a little guess work based on Magicks numbers and a working knowledge of HiFIMan figure fudging (Hint: HE-500 weighs 150g or so more than the spec smily_headphones1.gif )

So 45wpc into 8R would give you around 19V, and InnerFidelity measured the HE-6 at 53 ohms nominal, which would pan out to something like 6800mW/side, roughly. And at something like 80 dB/mW (based on InnerFidelity's data, again), you're looking at well over 115 dB assuming the transducers don't blow up. You can expect serious and long-term hearing damage within 20 minutes as well. basshead.gif
post #56 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post


45wpc 8ohm, According to Magick Man's calculations (and I'm sure he's spot on) it should be 8-10 into 50ohm. And I assue that the 50ohm is under-rated. The prototype was 60 I believe, so I bet the production HE-6 is closer to 55 if you were to measure it. HE-400 impedances measure all over the place in reality. So in all liklihood I'd say a REAL output of 7-9w into HE-6. Just a little guess work based on Magicks numbers and a working knowledge of HiFIMan figure fudging (Hint: HE-500 weighs 150g or so more than the spec smily_headphones1.gif )

 

Thanks, 7-9w sounds reasonable for the HE-6 I reckon. I assume you would have to use the Hifiman adapter box. This is a serious contender, and I might just be able to demo it in a store if I bring my HE-6.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


So 45wpc into 8R would give you around 19V, and InnerFidelity measured the HE-6 at 53 ohms nominal, which would pan out to something like 6800mW/side, roughly. And at something like 80 dB/mW (based on InnerFidelity's data, again), you're looking at well over 115 dB assuming the transducers don't blow up. You can expect serious and long-term hearing damage within 20 minutes as well. basshead.gif

Why would you get hearing damage from using a speaker amp if you are listening at the same volume level as you would from a  headphone amp? I assume there's enough play on the dial on the speaker amp to get the right volume.

post #57 of 178

(you're always a great read IEM, I new this thread would be long.. biggrin.gif)

 

Just my 2 cents,

 

Buy the HE500's. Sell the 650's and K702's. Buy a high quality dac. Keep the Lyr.

 

The HE500's are a high-end 650, I'm sure you will apreciate them, they are really transparent to quality sources and these are most important when you get to this stage. You have more than enough power with the Lyr and so matching the phones with a good dac imo would be a better option than going all out on a super phone and feeding them a mid-fi (for look of a better word) source. HE6's will need a summit-fi source otherwise you won't get that extra 10% (diminishing returns..) I'm sure the same will be for the LCD3's.

 

I've got some LCD2's in the post and will post some impressions soon to compare.     

post #58 of 178

Thank you for the input.  I will look into the Hifiman 400 and 500.  I have just one more to throw into mix.  Have you or anyone else heard the new Denon music maniac line?  If good this could give me on the go as well as a step up in audio.

post #59 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

Also a poartable amp will probably not shine superior with ny of the higher end cans, but many of the higher end cans will sound good on a portable. If you want the best sound it's best (or cheapest) to go with a nice desktop amp. But if you're lookng for a portable amp better than E11, O2 is quasi-portable and does wel with most of the mentioned cans. More exotic stuff like the AlogoRythm Solo I believe has an aux input other than iPod. HE-400 is said to do well with E11 and E17, but it'll probably do better with bigger amps. I like it on O2 for example, even though that's also semi portable. My preference for HE-400 though is still the Lyr and the tube sound for them
You may want to pick a headphone first, then figure out what to amp it with. Many of the cans you'll find asize from tthe big crazy power eaters like HE-6, HE-5LE, HE-4, HD800 (not power hungry but amp choosy along with HD6xx) will all work on a portable amp if needed, but most shine with desktop amps just because most desktop amps tend to be a little better designed since they don't need to make sacrifices for size/weight. O2, though ultra analytical is a great compromise of size/weight/portability and can run off internal rechargable 9v batteries. But if you're restricting yourself to portable, there have got to be more portable setups than Audeze, HifFiman, and most other headphones in the $~1k range. Unless you want Ultrasone...but I doubt it from your music choices.



Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the solo only a dac and not an amp?
post #60 of 178
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


So 45wpc into 8R would give you around 19V, and InnerFidelity measured the HE-6 at 53 ohms nominal, which would pan out to something like 6800mW/side, roughly. And at something like 80 dB/mW (based on InnerFidelity's data, again), you're looking at well over 115 dB assuming the transducers don't blow up. You can expect serious and long-term hearing damage within 20 minutes as well. basshead.gif

 

115dB sounds like what I'd consider a normal "way too loud" peak volume for any speaker/headphone if you crank the volume all the way to the top.  Of course, who cranks the volume all the way to the top? blink.gif  It sounds just about right ot keep the knob somewhere near the 12:00 sweet spot.  Beyond that is when some amplifiers are more prone to drive into distortion depending on amp design.  I.E. I'm not sure on that particular amp at what point you cross the +0.0dB threshold from the preamp and start overdriving the poweramp.   On my Denon AVR for example I think that +0.0dB threshold is somewhere around 70% and is the max recommended setting.  Beyond that you're overdriving the poweramp and could cause distortion or clipping.  So you want the max rating to be well in advance of the average knob position, and 115dB (real output) seems as good as any place to do it.  Of course on this amp that may not apply, of course, and the Denon is a much higher wpc amp.

 

I also think there may be some important variables (I'm not sure what ones but I get the feeling there are some) not being factored into your "by the book" numbers.  By your numbers, which look right, sound like they would blow transducers.  However I noticed grokit pointing out some info from Fang regarding the "HE-Adapter" (safety capacitor box for HE-6, sold seperately, for speaker taps which nobody seems to like.)  Apparently according to Fang, you don't even need the capacitor protection for them when under 70wpc to 90wpc (the number apparently changed a few times.) That's in the link that was posted above for the "what amps" thread.

 

So by Fang's specs, this amp is remarkably underpowered in terms of the ability to blow out transducers...the HE-6 should be able to take 40-60% more power than the max of that amp before you need to worry about the transducers (or all the time for OTL tubes.)  It sounds very wrong....but is intriguing all the more since it comes from the mfr.  Obvously worrying about your ears is a different matter, but it makes me wonder if there's another factor, namely that speaker amps aren't designed to drive 53ohm loads, and thus loose efficiency in horrible ways when driving HE-6, meaning you're not really getting that 6800mw going in.  That's one possible theory anyway. Point is, Fang's numbers seem a lot more power hungry than the straight calculations would suggest which implies a hidden variable that throws off how the numbers really work.  And there are people running these on much more powerful amps than 45mw, though it may be merely coincidence that really high end quality amps happen to also be really powerful amps.  I would suspect that the closer you get to that 70wpc threshold that marks the lowest floor of where you can actually blow a transducer, the more the volume dial accurately represents the full scale from pianissimo to magic smoke of the headphone biggrin.gif  I do suspect it has more to do with quality of amplification than overall power though in terms of how well it works, same as always.

 

HD650, K702, HE-400 all have the volume knob of the 6W Lyr down at 7:00 - 9:00 with my Squeezebox locked at 100%.  Sounds great! biggrin.gif 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZorgDK View Post

 

Thanks, 7-9w sounds reasonable for the HE-6 I reckon. I assume you would have to use the Hifiman adapter box. This is a serious contender, and I might just be able to demo it in a store if I bring my HE-6.

 

Why would you get hearing damage from using a speaker amp if you are listening at the same volume level as you would from a  headphone amp? I assume there's enough play on the dial on the speaker amp to get the right volume.

 

If grokit is right, it's nowhere near the need for the HE-Adapter box.   Supposedly that info comes from Fang.  Though personally I wouldn't tempt fate with something much bigger.  And if the volume is down that box is kind of pointless short of an amp malfunction.  Lyr is WAY more powerful than nearly all headphones other than HE-6 (for which it doesn't seem to be seen as enough power for), and more than capable of blowing them, but it works just fine with even the sensitive Denons so long as the volume is down.  (Denons pick up a lot of noise from it though.  Different issue.)

 

I think obob is just pointing out that, by the numbers, 45wpc is overkill for HE-6 based on max volume.  But I don't think that takes into account other factors.  Supposedly Lyr gets more than loud enough, but has a hard time driving the low end despite that planars should be linear in impedance.  Maybe not in current though? That's a big diaphragm and some very big magnets.Ironically Fang's amp for them doesn't get much love either...

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