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FiiO " Flagship " portable amp Mont Blanc/E12 discussing thread. - Page 64

post #946 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by feiao View Post

So, do you really want more bass boost in Mont Blanc ?

From what I'm hearing in my ATH-ES10 (notoriously bass-heavy), I must say... no, I don't think I want more bass boost.

 

Maybe something like the ATH-M50 will need the bass boost, but I don't think boosting bass even more is necessary for certain headphones.

 

I'm attending the SF Bay Area meet in 2 weeks, so I'll have access to a lot of high-end headphones. If I get the chance, I'll write up a paragraph or two about how those headphones pair with E12.

post #947 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trae View Post

something like a +/- button on the side that you push to either increase or decrease the bass quantity in increments.

 

^^This is a great idea.

 

Another option would be a single push button (color coded like E6) to select the bass amount -instead- of the slide switch like the E11. That way users don't have to be fiddling with the switch to make sure is in the right position.

 

0 = no led

+2 = blue

+4 = red

+6 = purple

post #948 of 3074
I agree with what Feiao said about bass, if you want more then you ought to get a bassier headphone, an EQ is not the cleanest way to achieve more. That said, sometimes you love your headphones, but a few particular songs might benefit from an extra boost. I think the E6 style EQ is a great idea, late as it might be for inclusion in the Mont Blanc, it would also make blind testing easy wink.gif

All that said though... The extra current from the E12 I have DOES shore-up the bass response, making it's presence felt without a need for boosting the decibel loudness of bass compared to the rest of the mix. I think of it this way: I like to feel bass when a song, movie, or game calls for it, but I don't need bass LOUDER proportionately to the mids or trebles. If your headphone does not suffer from bass (or treble) roll-off, then the extra current provided by the E12 solidifies the presence of harder-to-drive frequencies and headphones to bring them alongside the rest of the frequencies.

What I'm hearing is really good, maybe what others are hoping for in a dB, voltage boost in bass is actually enough current at the listening-volume voltage to give bass the authority and dynamism lacking in weaker amps paired with hard-to-drive headphones.
post #949 of 3074

Sorry if this has been already asked somewhere (I checked back ~5 pages) but is there anywhere to buy the E12 in the UK/Europe yet? Customs fees for orders from the US is something I'd rather not have to deal with right now.

I haven't been following the development of this amp like I did with the E11, but I might review it if I can get one since my E11 review went down pretty well.

post #950 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

I agree with what Feiao said about bass, if you want more then you ought to get a bassier headphone, an EQ is not the cleanest way to achieve more.

Here's the thing, I don't want to have to buy new headphones just for one $130 amp. What's the point of buying an amp if it doesn't work with your current headphones?

What I loved about the E11 is I can turn up the bass when needed and lower it when it's not needed. I can adjust it to what ever headphone I plug into it. The E12 takes this option away, and the only solution is to go buy new headphones? Sure it works great for you non-bassheads, but for those of us who wants more bass, 3db is not enough. 

I don't use EQ so I depend on the bass boost from my amp to give me that extra bass. The E12 can't do this, so I passed on it and now I'm waiting for the C5.


Edited by RoMee - 2/3/13 at 2:00pm
post #951 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoMee View Post

Here's the thing, I don't want to buy new headphones just for one $130 amp. What's the point of buying an amp if it doesn't work with your current headphones?
What I loved about the E11 is I can turn up the bass when needed and lower it when it's not needed. I can adjust it to what ever headphone I plug into it. The E12 takes this option away, and the only solution is to go buy new headphones? Sure it works great for you non-bassheads, but for those of us who wants more bass, 3db is not enough. 
I don't use EQ so I depend on the bass boost from my amp to give me that extra bass. The E12 can't do this, so I passed on it and now I'm waiting for the C5.
Or, you could look at it another way, the E12 "works with your current headphones," but maybe for easy-to-drive headphones with poor bass extension, the E11 you currently have may be better suited to your current headphones. The Audio Technica M50, good headphone, probably better suited to an E11 anyway and not benefiting as much from extra power.

I guess I should add that my headphones are Q701, which are of a higher tier than average headphones, and are tricky to drive because their sensitivity/impedance don't require much voltage to sound loud enough, BUT scale up a lot with a strong current supply. They also have better bass extension than M50s or the AD700 I actually own, and the bass actually didn't sound much fuller in the Q701 from the AD700 UNTIL I added a powerful amp that can supply more current than straight from my iPod. Some headphones benefit from that more than others, YMMV, for ME the E12 fits because I have a bunch of places I like to listen and a variety of headphones. And I'm not saying a bigger bass boost wouldn't be nice sometimes, BUT I appreciate the modestly because worse than a colorless (or nearly colorless amp) is adding grain and loosing the smooth fidelity of my headphones and files. For me, distortion during bass notes is the FIRST thing that causes sound to lose it's "Hi-Fi" quality.

It would be easier if I could just show you by letting you hear my Q701 with the E12 vs an M50 with a bass-boosted ZO. Since I can't, all I can say (in different ways) is keep your mind open to the possibility that bass-boost isn't everything.
post #952 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post


Or, you could look at it another way, the E12 "works with your current headphones," but maybe for easy-to-drive headphones with poor bass extension, the E11 you currently have may be better suited to your current headphones. The Audio Technica M50, good headphone, probably better suited to an E11 anyway and not benefiting as much from extra power.

I guess I should add that my headphones are Q701, which are of a higher tier than average headphones, and are tricky to drive because their sensitivity/impedance don't require much voltage to sound loud enough, BUT scale up a lot with a strong current supply. They also have better bass extension than M50s or the AD700 I actually own, and the bass actually didn't sound much fuller in the Q701 from the AD700 UNTIL I added a powerful amp that can supply more current than straight from my iPod. Some headphones benefit from that more than others, YMMV, for ME the E12 fits because I have a bunch of places I like to listen and a variety of headphones. And I'm not saying a bigger bass boost wouldn't be nice sometimes, BUT I appreciate the modestly because worse than a colorless (or nearly colorless amp) is adding grain and loosing the smooth fidelity of my headphones and files. For me, distortion during bass notes is the FIRST thing that causes sound to lose it's "Hi-Fi" quality.

It would be easier if I could just show you by letting you hear my Q701 with the E12 vs an M50 with a bass-boosted ZO. Since I can't, all I can say (in different ways) is keep your mind open to the possibility that bass-boost isn't everything.

You're not a basshead and your M50 and 701 are not basshead cans so you wouldn't understand. If I wasn't a basshead I would be in the same boat as you.

You need to look at this from a basshead's point of view not your own.

 

Plain and simple, the E12 is not for bassheads, and if FiiO can make a version with a better bass boost, than great, I'll be first in line for one maybe two, if they can't/won't than I'll just take my money elsewhere. 

I'm not here demanding FiiO change the E12, I'm simply answering a question by Feiao. 

Quote:
So, do you really want more bass boost in Mont Blanc ? Yes I do

FYI, I have tried the 701 along with other "hifi" headphones, and I can tell you, they do nothing for the music I listen to.


Edited by RoMee - 2/3/13 at 2:53pm
post #953 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

I agree with what Feiao said about bass, if you want more then you ought to get a bassier headphone, an EQ is not the cleanest way to achieve more.

 

I disagree, there exists no refined basshead cans with the amounts I'm looking for, I get better result picking a less bassy headphone and give it some boost especially with the ZO amp than no boost with a bassier headphone. Not all amps handle bass boost equally well for that matter, there's a big difference in how it's configured. Low frequencies consume a lot more power so ideally that range would need a bit more power if you end up boosting say 5dB for example.

 

The sweetspot for me is around 8dB bass boost in the headphone (what I usually go search for when picking a new candidate to test), then apply sliightly more from the ZO -> perfect. Bassy but with plenty of details, has to be experienced to be believed though because it sounds much better than say your typical extreme basshead can this way. I've yet to hear a 10dB+ bass boosted headphone sounding as detailed as I'm looking for, with a bit below 10dB + some bass boost from the amp it's possible though to get satisfactory detail retrieval.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsilva22 View Post

 

^^This is a great idea.

 

Another option would be a single push button (color coded like E6) to select the bass amount -instead- of the slide switch like the E11. That way users don't have to be fiddling with the switch to make sure is in the right position.

 

0 = no led

+2 = blue

+4 = red

+6 = purple

 

I like this idea too, a single push button that switches between different settings.


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 2/3/13 at 3:30pm
post #954 of 3074
Sorry, I was saying I have the AD700, haven't heard the M50 myself. I was just using it as an example.
And if you ARE a basshead and you DO want bass all the time, then why Don't you have very bassy headphones? I hear Phiathon(sic) and a few others are very highly regarded, I liked my V-MODA LPs as a bassy alternative sometimes before I misplaced them somewhere. Or if you do have bass-favored headphones and you still want it boosted more, then... yeah, you're going to make some fidelity compromises. Heavy bass boosting is on the other extreme from a cold, thin sound. I think the E12 is very balanced, neither cold nor hot, and the bass boost is more for "balancing" than transforming a headphone's color.

If the E11 bass boost does well for you, why upgrade? FWIR the first ZO went overboard and the compromises from that design slotted it into niche appeal, they toned it down a bit in the second revision. I'm not saying this amp here fulfills your needs, I don't care cuz I already have one and I like mine, but I was just trying to make the point that a balanced amp with a modest bass boost option has broader applications than an aggressive bass boost option.

In summary... *shrug* if you want to add more bass volume over the other frequencies, then yeah, this amp isn't for you. For others, I'm just making a point that a greater dB boost isn't the only aspect of great bass, great sound. If that point presents a challenge that upsets you, I'm sorry because I did not intend to cause upset.
post #955 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

Sorry, I was saying I have the AD700, haven't heard the M50 myself. I was just using it as an example.
And if you ARE a basshead and you DO want bass all the time, then why Don't you have very bassy headphones? I hear Phiathon(sic) and a few others are very highly regarded, I liked my V-MODA LPs as a bassy alternative sometimes before I misplaced them somewhere. Or if you do have bass-favored headphones and you still want it boosted more, then... yeah, you're going to make some fidelity compromises. Heavy bass boosting is on the other extreme from a cold, thin sound. I think the E12 is very balanced, neither cold nor hot, and the bass boost is more for "balancing" than transforming a headphone's color.

If the E11 bass boost does well for you, why upgrade? FWIR the first ZO went overboard and the compromises from that design slotted it into niche appeal, they toned it down a bit in the second revision. I'm not saying this amp here fulfills your needs, I don't care cuz I already have one and I like mine, but I was just trying to make the point that a balanced amp with a modest bass boost option has broader applications than an aggressive bass boost option.

In summary... *shrug* if you want to add more bass volume over the other frequencies, then yeah, this amp isn't for you. For others, I'm just making a point that a greater dB boost isn't the only aspect of great bass, great sound. If that point presents a challenge that upsets you, I'm sorry because I did not intend to cause upset.

You got to read what people write more thoroughly, I never said I want bass all the time.

 

Quote:
What I loved about the E11 is I can turn up the bass when needed and lower it when it's not needed.

Like I said you're not a basshead so you'll never understand.

Also no one is asking FiiO to change the E12, we're just answering a simple question by Feiao


Edited by RoMee - 2/3/13 at 3:38pm
post #956 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by xezi View Post
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I haven't, but I did now, and there were a lot of data there that I wasn't aware of. Tx for the tip.

 

If we take the article as correct, then we should imply that all companies that sell

consumer dac/amps, amps, headphones, saying they are 24 bit or compliant or

show a frequency range above 20kHz are doing this for pure marketing reasons?

That is a bold statement, I believe.

 

Some years ago, there was a hype about PMPO, maybe you remember that.

Sony stereo systems came with a tag stating that they give a PMPO number for

the sake of comparison for the consumer, but they warn that this measure

has no technical significance, only RMS has. PMPO was just a number. I wonder if world class 

manufacturers, such as Sennheiser, Denon, Grado, wouldn't warn the consumer

for similar reasons?

 

One thing I was thinking these days, about consumer 24bit amps or dac/amps and so,

is this: if you supply 1Vp for your headphone with 16bit resolution, that would give

a 31uV quantization step, which is a very demanding circuit design already. 

 

Now, if your system is running with 24bit quantization, that would be an 119nV quantization step,

supposing a linear curve. And that is a spaceship-grade noise level/quantization noise/quantization error,

even with dithering considered, which raises up some serious doubt about consumer products with these specs, indeed.

 

In conclusion, I am eager to listen from manufacturing people what they know,

it's a bit of a gray area for me yet.

 

Tx.

There's a benefit of 24 bits and higher sample rates for the hardware, just not really for final masters of music intended for playback for humans.  No hardware gets close to 24 bits precision, but they can definitely go beyond 16 bits if designed carefully.  I guess you could say the features and capability are more for marketing than anything else, but there's something legitimate there.

 

When looking at frequency range specs for headphones / amps... don't take it seriously.  What matters is the performance in the range you can hear.  Maybe if a transducer can put a piddling amount of energy out at 30 kHz (how much? that's what counts and they usually don't say), for example, it might be better at reproducing tones at 12 kHz than one that can't really go beyond 26 kHz.  Or not.  Can't really say.

 

 

 

Anyway, for current E12 users, how does the charging work?  Battery life on typical usage?  Operation while charging (increased noise, maybe)?

 

Personally for an amp bass boost, I prefer something confined to the lower frequencies and not bleeding through the midrange, but I'm really not a basshead at all.  Seems like E12 bass boost would be agreeable with me.


Edited by mikeaj - 2/3/13 at 3:37pm
post #957 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post

I disagree, there exists no refined basshead cans with the amounts I'm looking for, I get better result picking a less bassy headphone and give it some boost especially with the ZO amp than no boost with a bassier headphone. Not all amps handle bass boost equally well for that matter, there's a big difference in how it's configured. Low frequencies consume a lot more power so ideally that range would need a bit more power if you end up boosting say 5dB for example.

Look, I don't mean to step my foot into it, but my understanding is that yes, low frequencies consume more power, yes, the E12's dB boost is subtle, but what if the requirement for more power is more about supplying enough current than supplying more voltage and dB boost? On a subjective level however, if you DO want bass louder than the other frequencies (and I'm not judging that, I'm not saying individual taste is bad), then yeah you're gonna want a different amp. Craigster's idea of source-->ZO with bass boost-->E12 (for balanced power/current amping)--> M100 headphones is interesting, I'd like to know if he likes it, even if my taste makes me shy of anything reaching XB500 quantity (not talking about quality).

I also wanted to point out, when I said the Q701 was "hi-fi," it's not a reflection on my opinion of myself, but merely that usually higher-end headphones are the ones that require more current AND voltage to sound good AND loud enough, and the Q701 in particular is an odd beast that is really sensitive to amping. High end headphones (for which I think the E12 is targeting) also usually have more balance than bass emphasis, and slight colorations in the audio chain are pretty noticeable when trying to reveal as much as possible from the recording and performance.
post #958 of 3074

In, for support of E12 bass version :)

post #959 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

There's a benefit of 24 bits and higher sample rates for the hardware, just not really for final masters of music intended for playback for humans.  No hardware gets close to 24 bits precision, but they can definitely go beyond 16 bits if designed carefully.  I guess you could say the features and capability are more for marketing than anything else, but there's something legitimate there.

When looking at frequency range specs for headphones / amps... don't take it seriously.  What matters is the performance in the range you can hear.  Maybe if a transducer can put a piddling amount of energy out at 30 kHz (how much? that's what counts and they usually don't say), for example, it might be better at reproducing tones at 12 kHz than one that can't really go beyond 26 kHz.  Or not.  Can't really say.

Anyway, for current E12 users, how does the charging work?  Battery life on typical usage?  Operation while charging (increased noise, maybe)?

Personally for an amp bass boost, I prefer something confined to the lower frequencies and not bleeding through the midrange, but I'm really not a basshead at all.  Seems like E12 bass boost would be agreeable with me.

Energy at 30Hz... This is what I was trying to talk about. And now, I'm done talking about it, because people are getting the wrong idea.

Charging is done through USB, which scales speed of charging if you are using a computer's USB port or if the USB is plugged into a wall-wart. It takes a couple of hours to charge, but you can use it while plugged in. There is an increase in noise while charging, it's not bad but noticeable. I haven't timed the battery life yet, but I've been using it for gaming and music pretty 5 days a week since I got it and have only had to recharge it twice. There's a nice "low battery" light now, that also indicates charging. The E12 bass boost does a really good job of staying confined to sub-frequencies and adds almost no grain, though I think it's better thought of as a bass "balance" than a boost.
post #960 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by quisxx View Post

In, for support of E12 bass version smily_headphones1.gif
Maybe the DIY version will allow you to color the sound to your liking?
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