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FiiO " Flagship " portable amp Mont Blanc/E12 discussing thread. - Page 172

post #2566 of 3074
In my big ol' stereo rig I'm obsessive about keeping all the spaghetti (cables) neat an unobtrusive. I use mini tie wraps. I'd never use them on my, comparatively speaking, tiny headphone rig but hey, whatever floats yr boat!wink.gif
post #2567 of 3074

Yeah I was thinking that or even just a little velcro strap.. nothing crazy, just a thought.

post #2568 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

The idea of all amp sounds equally transparent is only possible when each and every amp is individually optimized perfectly to sound transparent to the load. Theoretically nice but practically not easy. Adding a bass boost could add some distortion, adding crossfeed might take away space that could better lay out the circuit to improve separation. Thus there is the question of whether the circuit is truly optimized or not. While it should be that the E12 is good beyond "human's ability to perceive", same can be said to O2 or C5. But if you volume match them in a blind test, there is still possible to tell them apart. Well, at least I can when I did the test awhile back.

Using bass boost with enough headroom will avoid distortion. Without bass boost or crossfeed (which I rarely use) what exactly is there in the "circuit optimization" that can make the amp sound different? And of course a proper damping ratio need be in place. Flat response will not change as the amp does voltage amplification and if it can supply the required current for the load, the FR is flat and no distortion should result. A proper blind test would require the source driving multiple amps, simultaneously, matching the volume by using a meter at each output and having a switch that can quickly swap the cans between the amps. Of course another person must do the switching without your knowledge. Also the music should be on a short loop that has enough range in the music.

So what is the technical or "circuit optimization" that will make things different? Comparative listening for small differences is a difficult task for the finest of ears.

post #2569 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Using bass boost with enough headroom will avoid distortion. Without bass boost or crossfeed (which I rarely use) what exactly is there in the "circuit optimization" that can make the amp sound different? And of course a proper damping ratio need be in place. Flat response will not change as the amp does voltage amplification and if it can supply the required current for the load, the FR is flat and no distortion should result. A proper blind test would require the source driving multiple amps, simultaneously, matching the volume by using a meter at each output and having a switch that can quickly swap the cans between the amps. Of course another person must do the switching without your knowledge. Also the music should be on a short loop that has enough range in the music.

So what is the technical or "circuit optimization" that will make things different? Comparative listening for small differences is a difficult task for the finest of ears.


As I ordered the DIY i was thinking like you, but wanted to give it a try. Now that I have the DIY I can hear that they sound different to the standard E12 and that the different oamps/buffs all sound a little different or provide a different sound stage. I cannot say something about better or worse, but different. That is interesting play like thing, but not totally necessary. So your standard E12 is alright, no question.

post #2570 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by pietcux View Post
 


As I ordered the DIY i was thinking like you, but wanted to give it a try. Now that I have the DIY I can hear that they sound different to the standard E12 and that the different oamps/buffs all sound a little different or provide a different sound stage. I cannot say something about better or worse, but different. That is interesting play like thing, but not totally necessary. So your standard E12 is alright, no question.

Most people are unaware of how human auditory memory works or doesn't. If you were given a proper blind test, you would be surprised at the results. There are very basic parameters involved, nothing so special other than the human component which can easily skew the results.

post #2571 of 3074

I read a lot about blind test and know that they are correct. And the thing is that even when there are audible differences, if you do not compare you will get used to a sound supply chain and do not miss anything as your brain will "equalize" that sound to the sounds that you know from reality like live concerts. I read that people where claiming that the Gramophones provided high fidelity.

post #2572 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by pietcux View Post
 

I read a lot about blind test and know that they are correct. And the thing is that even when there are audible differences, if you do not compare you will get used to a sound supply chain and do not miss anything as your brain will "equalize" that sound to the sounds that you know from reality like live concerts. I read that people where claiming that the Gramophones provided high fidelity.

Now that last one is definitely an extreme case. How about the people that claim that Beats provide high fidelity? In that case, I might pick the Gramophone before the Beats.


Edited by StanD - 1/4/14 at 6:52pm
post #2573 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Using bass boost with enough headroom will avoid distortion. Without bass boost or crossfeed (which I rarely use) what exactly is there in the "circuit optimization" that can make the amp sound different? And of course a proper damping ratio need be in place. Flat response will not change as the amp does voltage amplification and if it can supply the required current for the load, the FR is flat and no distortion should result. A proper blind test would require the source driving multiple amps, simultaneously, matching the volume by using a meter at each output and having a switch that can quickly swap the cans between the amps. Of course another person must do the switching without your knowledge. Also the music should be on a short loop that has enough range in the music.

So what is the technical or "circuit optimization" that will make things different? Comparative listening for small differences is a difficult task for the finest of ears.

 

Shortening of the analog path will reduce possibility of interference as well as noise from passive components (i.e. E12DIY is fully shielded from EMI where E12 isn't), better layout of the circuitry can improve separation, lesser active components that generates noise, especially in the power section, too will improve SNR. More current can be fed to the amp section because less is needed elsewhere. Even as you have said - by removing bass boost, you can free up a little bit of headroom that would otherwise needed so bass boost won't result in clipping. All the little bits add up.

 

Yes, that's a blind test. I won't say it is laboratory standard, but it is as close as it can be done in a home, with SPL meter and multimeter to match things up.

post #2574 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

 

Shortening of the analog path will reduce possibility of interference as well as noise from passive components (i.e. E12DIY is fully shielded from EMI where E12 isn't), better layout of the circuitry can improve separation, lesser active components that generates noise, especially in the power section, too will improve SNR. More current can be fed to the amp section because less is needed elsewhere. Even as you have said - by removing bass boost, you can free up a little bit of headroom that would otherwise needed so bass boost won't result in clipping. All the little bits add up.

 

Yes, that's a blind test. I won't say it is laboratory standard, but it is as close as it can be done in a home, with SPL meter and multimeter to match things up.

I haven't noticed any interference with my E12. FiiO doesn't mention any changes to shielding in their literature that I've seen I'd think they'd tout any such improvements. Are you saying that they entirely laid out a new PC board that noticeably improves separation and that there was a problem with separation? The plugins for the opamps in the DIY actually have a potential for decreasing separation and increasing stray coupling  Have they redesigned the circuit and removed components (lesser) or do you mean that they've used better components and if so which ones? This device uses a battery, which acts as a huge deterrent to noise, what have they changed in the power section? Removing bass boost in the DIY has the same affect as simply switching off the bass boost in the standard product, so I don't understand how that "adds up." Were these statements for the sake of discussing what is possible?

I guess you didn't use a switch for the comparative test or run on a loop of music. Even if you match levels with a meter after swapping cables, too much time and attention is taken away from a human comparative test.


Edited by StanD - 1/4/14 at 8:30pm
post #2575 of 3074
I get electromagnetic interference all the time with my E12 whenever I tried to use it as a portable amp. The noise is so bad that it deters me from using it as such an amp...I literally have to take my headphones off because the noise is so loud for me.
post #2576 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I get electromagnetic interference all the time with my E12 whenever I tried to use it as a portable amp. The noise is so bad that it deters me from using it as such an amp...I literally have to take my headphones off because the noise is so loud for me.

Maybe you have a defective cable or the E12 itself is daft. What is the source of the EMI?

post #2577 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I get electromagnetic interference all the time with my E12 whenever I tried to use it as a portable amp. The noise is so bad that it deters me from using it as such an amp...I literally have to take my headphones off because the noise is so loud for me.
Maybe you have a defective cable or the E12 itself is daft. What is the source of the EMI?
The cable works just fine as I get minimal EMI from the JDS Labs C5 using the same setup (iPhone 4S -> FiiO L9 -> amp -> V-MODA Crossfade M-100) in the same areas of use (typically where there is a lack of cell phone coverage).
post #2578 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post


The cable works just fine as I get minimal EMI from the JDS Labs C5 using the same setup (iPhone 4S -> FiiO L9 -> amp -> V-MODA Crossfade M-100) in the same areas of use (typically where there is a lack of cell phone coverage).

Maybe your E12 is defective, I get none of it with mine. I also have an E18 DAC which picks up a small amount of EMI from my Galaxy S3. I found that I can almost eliminate that by putting the cellphone and E18 back to back, twisting the OTG cable and offsetting the two devices so that the E18 volume knob sticks out past the cellphone. In any case the EMI to the E18 is slight and only occurs just as happened to you, when switching or seeking cell towers. My E12 has not exhibited such problems. You should ask FiiO about this, why put up with it.

post #2579 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

I haven't noticed any interference with my E12. FiiO doesn't mention any changes to shielding in their literature that I've seen I'd think they'd tout any such improvements. Are you saying that they entirely laid out a new PC board that noticeably improves separation and that there was a problem with separation? The plugins for the opamps in the DIY actually have a potential for decreasing separation and increasing stray coupling  Have they redesigned the circuit and removed components (lesser) or do you mean that they've used better components and if so which ones? This device uses a battery, which acts as a huge deterrent to noise, what have they changed in the power section? Removing bass boost in the DIY has the same affect as simply switching off the bass boost in the standard product, so I don't understand how that "adds up." Were these statements for the sake of discussing what is possible?

I guess you didn't use a switch for the comparative test or run on a loop of music. Even if you match levels with a meter after swapping cables, too much time and attention is taken away from a human comparative test.

 

I have a switch. In fact, it is made by FiiO for the purpose of A/Bing. But I guess you are just not going to take any words I have said for what they are. That's fine, but I don't want to keep arguing in loop. If you want the detail, read the E12DIY thread carefully and all the info is right in there.

 

Just one last thing: yes, E12 and E12DIY has totally different PCB layout.


Edited by ClieOS - 1/4/14 at 9:03pm
post #2580 of 3074
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

 

I have a switch. In fact, it is made by FiiO for the purpose of A/Bing. But I guess you are just not going to take any words I have said for what they are. That's fine, but I don't want to keep arguing in loop. If you want the detail, read the E12DIY thread carefully and all the info is right in there.

 

Just one last thing: yes, E12 and E12DIY has totally different PCB layout.

I took a quick peek at the DIY thread in the past. I'll read through it in the next day or two.

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