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FiiO " Flagship " portable amp Mont Blanc/E12 discussing thread. - Page 85

post #1261 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apo0th3karY View Post

I'm still want the E12v1 for the QUALITY bass, and the fact that it's a sub bass boost, rather than mid bass, which lends to be more atmospheric and rumbling than it being as bass cannon switch. 
Sry for misquoting your name, it was on the last page and I concentrated more on what you said... No offense? Can I just call you Apoth or some other nickname, it would save a lot of time. However, if you demand me to type Apo0th3karY on my iPad every time (takes almost as long as a full sentence, or just this parenthesized thought), then my name is Bannakaffalatta !
But on a more serious note, yes, I do feel the E12 has quality, punchy bass along with similar qualities across the freq spectrum smily_headphones1.gif

Lol I do have a rather complicated user name that happens to include a typo, but for ease of reference you can call me Apo0. Lol. No offense taken, Bannakaffalatta, all in good fun. smily_headphones1.gif
post #1262 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

You're really surprised by that?  That's pretty much the hardest region to get right with most if not all solid state designs.  The distortion of those frequencies though is merely an effect of the odd-ordered harmonic distortion which occurs most often and largely because of typical methods used for controlling noise (or in essence, for lowering the noise floor).  The most commonly used (and largely accepted) method is known as negative feedback.  Are you aware of these things?  If not, that's probably why it seems to be out of nowhere.  I need to look into the O2 amp more to know for sure about that one, but for instance, the Benchmark DAC1 has the only amp I know in it that achieves practically no harmonic distortion of the sort (although admittedly, I collectively only know so many compared to the amount of different amps there are out there).  As for the technical details for how it's done, I have no idea.  I wouldn't know any better than to even believe if I were told that they somehow perfectly integrated the negative feedback circuit with some sort of variation to it...  I know enough to understand why, but not how, lol.

 

Ahhhh,

I see where you're coming from now.

 

It is fairly easy to design a soild state amp with extremely flat frequency response.

Example:   take a look at the frequency response for the E17 and the E09K.

As you have pointed out, don't confuse high frequency response with distortion of the higher frequencies.

 

As for the distortion, with proper choice of Op Amps and proper design techniques it is not difficult to design a low distortion headphone amp.  It just takes some work.  In theory, the E12 should have THD as low as the O2 or Benchmark DAC1.

 

Feedback is not used to control noise, but it can be used to lower distortion, decrease output impedance, increase input impedance, control DC offset, etc, etc.

 

That "Solid vs. Tube Amps" .pdf appears to be written by somone with a good knowledge of Music Theory and Psychoacoustics but a very poor understanding of Electronic Theory.

All tube amps use some form of negative feedback.

But it is true that generally speaking a tube amp will use much less feedback than a typical soild state amp.

The FiiO E12 uses two integrated circuits which use a lot of feedback.

 

The "Solid State vs. Tube Amps" author seems to have a reasonable good grasp of one aspect of solid state vs. tube amp design: there is more to it than the fact that one design uses transistors and the other design uses tubes.

For example:

Since tubes are large, run hot and are expensive and transistors are cheaper and smaller, a tube amp will usually have a lot less tubes than a solid state amp will have transistors. Therefore the design approach is quite different.

 

BTW, I'm an Electrical Engineer with over 25 years of practical experience, including one year designing Analog Signal processors for the Navy.



Note to Apo0:
Toronto! My kind of town!
I used to live there!
Cheers:D
Edited by Chris J - 2/16/13 at 7:56am
post #1263 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

Ahhhh,

I see where you're coming from now.

 

It is fairly easy to design a soild state amp with extremely flat frequency response.

Example:   take a look at the frequency response for the E17 and the E09K.

As you have pointed out, don't confuse high frequency response with distortion of the higher frequencies.

 

As for the distortion, with proper choice of Op Amps and proper design techniques it is not difficult to design a low distortion headphone amp.  It just takes some work.  In theory, the E12 should have THD as low as the O2 or Benchmark DAC1.

 

Feedback is not used to control noise, but it can be used to lower distortion, decrease output impedance, increase input impedance, control DC offset, etc, etc.

 

That "Solid vs. Tube Amps" .pdf appears to be written by somone with a good knowledge of Music Theory and Psychoacoustics but a very poor understanding of Electronic Theory.

All tube amps use some form of negative feedback.

But it is true that generally speaking a tube amp will use much less feedback than a typical soild state amp.

The FiiO E12 uses two integrated circuits which use a lot of feedback.

 

The "Solid State vs. Tube Amps" author seems to have a reasonable good grasp of one aspect of solid state vs. tube amp design: there is more to it than the fact that one design uses transistors and the other design uses tubes.

For example:

Since tubes are large, run hot and are expensive and transistors are cheaper and smaller, a tube amp will usually have a lot less tubes than a solid state amp will have transistors. Therefore the design approach is quite different.

 

BTW, I'm an Electrical Engineer with over 25 years of practical experience, including one year designing Analog Signal processors for the Navy.



Note to Apo0:
Toronto! My kind of town!
I used to live there!
Cheers:D

Oh, very cool.  And now you hit the nail right on the head.  I don't know how to best express this to you so that you know my legitimate interest in Electronics Theory & Electronics in general, if it even matters for the point here, but basically apart from that, I'm actually fully involved in a different path, and the time spent on finding, transferring to, and finishing a degree in Electrical Engineering at just the right school, taking precedence over my involvement in audio, just isn't the right thing for me to do currently.  I am actually the author of that PDF (I'd love to add more of the Electrical Engineering side of things with revisions that would then very likely need to take place), and I'm really looking for a way to learn.  It really plays hand-in-hand with what I do, and I'd like to be able to be as much an engineer in what I do as anything else.  It's largely the foundation of how I think anyway.  

 

All that being said, the implication throughout this I guess would be that in addition to the main focus of my career, I'm looking for my involvement in electronics to be a serious avocation of mine to work along side everything else.  The main purpose for my learning, knowledge, and ability in electronics would be to have the skill set to properly understand any schematic, the workings of mostly any piece of gear/component, and be able to modify things to my whim, as it all pertains to audio.  The reason I didn't just fully go into the electronics field entirely is because when it comes to actual work, I'm just not entirely as interested in designing components for the rest of my life (although I do have interest) as I am interested in understanding them and interacting with their potential mechanics.  Then there is obviously the creative side of things which needs to follow for me as that is what's my greatest passion (music).  I'm willing to put in whatever the cost/amount of time that it takes to learn, but it just has to be based on my own clock (at least at the present time).  Just to give you maybe slightly more of an idea of my interests/abilities on that front, I also build custom computers and have never run into any problem that I couldn't troubleshoot (and I've seen some crazy and very abnormal things), most cases in which others were clueless.  I feel that's because while others relied on what they were told, I relied on my actual understanding of the components and what there is to them (despite electrically not fully knowing what's going on, as was always my weakness I'd say).  I know the very basics and don't have the leisure to waste my time poking at random sources only to gain 10% (as it is of relevance to my needs) of the often little that they have to offer in the first place.  There is a very well known problem of Engineers often not being the best of writers and/or teachers XD.  

 

So, if we could bring this to PM, might you help me?  Would you maybe have any suggestions?  You know, like whatever possibly has come to mind whilst reading this, lol.  I would REALLY appreciate any input, and thanks either way!  Sincerely.

 

 

PS- I left the document nameless (with that being said, I obviously don't mind it being linked to me) because even though I'm proud of most of the information and perspective I was able to provide (and I really try to avoid stating things I am not at least 90% confident in, which usually comes after much contemplation and deliberation), I don't like putting anything out there until I also feel that whatever it is also represents at least 90% of the substance that the material could possibly have to offer and/or imply.  In other words, what I put out needs to cover at least 90% of the vision I have for it, or in essence, represent an idea to its greatest potential.  This isn't because I'm afraid or obsessed, but more because it otherwise is just pointless and/or useless in its existence IMO (not so much the case here, but certainly so when it comes to my ability to compose, perform, and produce a song for instance).  It's the equivalent of a band releasing their work before they even know or have built their art to the point which fulfills a possible vision, that is, if and when there even is one.  And as a side note, when I say pointless, I mean pointless as it pertains to having a positive effect.  That is to say that as an example, pandering to the greatest common denominator as it presently stands with whatever you plan to put out, there'd be a point in, but it would be of nothing that I'd ever want to have anything to do with (for reasons which are too tangential unfortunately, but philosophically crucially important in my view).  


Edited by Typhoon859 - 2/16/13 at 10:24pm
post #1264 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post


Can I just call you Apoth or some other nickname, it would save a lot of time. However, if you demand me to type Apo0th3karY on my iPad every time (takes almost as long as a full sentence, or just this parenthesized thought), then my name is Bannakaffalatta!

 

 

Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY

 

:D

 

j/k

 

 

I wonder when this unit and the X3 will be available in Europe, I can't wait anymore. :)


Edited by MrScratch - 2/16/13 at 12:18pm
post #1265 of 3021
Typhoon,
Somewhere between the 1st and 2nd page, I could tell that the doc was basically a 2nd draft by a university student. I was going to ask if it was yours. It does contain good info and, perhaps because it is still freshly new-ish in your mind, I like that it includes "foundational info" based on connecting the concepts to other fields of study (namely, music and psychoacoustics). However, a few sentences could have a little better clarity and stylistic flow massaged out of them to create a more finished piece. Are you turning it in for a grade? I could make a couple non-engineer suggestions if you'd like.

I used to play violin in the school orchestra, I've also built my own computer (unfortunately I don't know the software coding I used to make the OS X work), and I spent my first college semester (in 2005) as a mechanical engineering major. I would've actually greatly enjoyed circuit design and product design, but bugger all calculus derivatives wink.gif I actually transferred over to art and graphic design, lol, and finished my degree in that smily_headphones1.gifPS: I would HIGHLY recommend taking far-sighted internships that will either offer you a job out of college, or provide connections to someone who can.

You share of yourself, I share my life smily_headphones1.gif

MrScratch,
Veeeery clever! I was actually thinking of looking for that to be clever and surprise Apo0th3karY, but I thought it would be more fun to share some Dr Who wink.gif However, I will poke fun and point out that the typo in the name indicates even the author has trouble typing it wink.gif that's basically the trouble with all l337 speak anyway.
post #1266 of 3021
Haha yeah its pretty bad I have problems spelling my own name, maybe I need to update my spellchecker. It is my DJ name so the numbers are less 1337 and more so to grab attention. But believe it or not this is the second account of mine with the same typo, but this one was on purpose because my first head-fi account had a typo in the email so I couldn't access that account at all.

I'm not one to be ashamed of humility so its just a fun anecdote haha.
post #1267 of 3021
Hey it's cool man, you enjoying those M-100s with your DJ'ing? I can see why you'd be served by a portable amp.
post #1268 of 3021
They're very nice for DJing, the punch of the bass kick drum, and the snappy snares along with having detailed hi hats all help to beat match, and they take very well to being amped by my mixer, I prefer the sound of them through my mixer, which has multiple DACs for 4 decks and two channels each as well as the hp out, however, its not functional as a desktop amp/dac unless I'm DJing unfortunately.

Anyways this is waaaay ot lol.
post #1269 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

Typhoon,
Somewhere between the 1st and 2nd page, I could tell that the doc was basically a 2nd draft by a university student. I was going to ask if it was yours. It does contain good info and, perhaps because it is still freshly new-ish in your mind, I like that it includes "foundational info" based on connecting the concepts to other fields of study (namely, music and psychoacoustics). However, a few sentences could have a little better clarity and stylistic flow massaged out of them to create a more finished piece. Are you turning it in for a grade? I could make a couple non-engineer suggestions if you'd like.

I used to play violin in the school orchestra, I've also built my own computer (unfortunately I don't know the software coding I used to make the OS X work), and I spent my first college semester (in 2005) as a mechanical engineering major. I would've actually greatly enjoyed circuit design and product design, but bugger all calculus derivatives wink.gif I actually transferred over to art and graphic design, lol, and finished my degree in that smily_headphones1.gifPS: I would HIGHLY recommend taking far-sighted internships that will either offer you a job out of college, or provide connections to someone who can.

You share of yourself, I share my life smily_headphones1.gif

Ok, cool.  I mean, the point wasn't how it's written.  The point was the information.  I'm assuming you read it all yet you didn't really comment on whether you got anything from it or not.  

 

Reading it now, it starts out rougher than I remembered and yeah, some of it can be written better.  I was considering revising it before uploading it but it was besides the point and I was quite busy.  I always get sucked into forums and something like that would be the reason why.  However, I posted it thinking you'd be engaged by it.  I didn't think you'd be distracted by something like that.  And by the way, I always include foundational info.  It's not by accident.  The point is for mostly everybody to be able to pick it up and be able to understand it.  That's actually something I greatly value.  It creates a nicer flow when the basics are connected with the point being made and when it comes to teaching at the very least, that's always the best kind and where you learn the most from.  If I knew you personally and it was written directly to you, I probably would have written it differently because obviously that's the way you've interpreted it, from that point of view.  

 

Thanks for the recommendation by the way.  I'm on a very non-traditional path though, but if possible, it still may include an internship if I could land one of value relative to what I'm doing.  I took Calculus too btw, all the way up to Advanced Calc 2; hopefully it won't end up a waste because as it stands, I don't know if I'll be able to apply it towards any possible degree I'd be finishing.  

 

But anyway, sorry if I was the cause of it but this is obviously off topic and for new people coming in to read this, probably inconsiderate XD.  That PDF pretty much explains exactly what you stated you were hearing initially and it wasn't a coincidence.  


Edited by Typhoon859 - 2/16/13 at 10:21pm
post #1270 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach-X View Post

Read the first 60 pages of this thread and had to fast forward through the rest. It just got too aggravating seeing the same questions/issues cropping up.

First off, for the bass craving folks, stop using icrap to play your music. Not that ipods/iphones/ipads are bad, they are not they offer fine quality dacs and frequency response.

What they don't offer is end user sound customization. It's like using all weather tires in the winter, it sort of works but isn't optimized for the power user.

Spend $30 and get yourself a sansa clip+. And then add the rockbox firmware for the ultimate in audio customization. Linear DAC's are pennies on the dollar nowadays (contrary to what the folks at zanden audio would have you believe), and the sansa sandisk clip+ offers a fully linear dac equal to the ipod/itouch/iphone. As tested by nwavguy, as well as many others.

What rockbox offers you is the ability to set a low 'shelf', in the digital domain, ie, one frequency where you want the boost to begin and no frequencies above that will be affected. And you can boost it up to 24 db. Naturally, it also allows you to set your precut to match that to avoid digital clipping. THEN allow the E12 to work its magic in the analog domain with its prodigious power output. Rockbox on the sansa clip even has user adjustable crossfeed settings as well as channel seperation settings. Honestly, a rockboxed sansa clip replaces $1000's of dollars in seperate components, for $30. And then you can let the prodigious power output of the E12 work its magic.

very informative, thank you, I may go buy a sansa clip.

post #1271 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

Not sure if you saw my reply to you in the long list of quoted posts here.


Thanks.  I had missed what you wrote.


Edited by SteveSatch - 2/17/13 at 10:44am
post #1272 of 3021

How long until available on Amazon.com?

post #1273 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSatch View Post

How long until available on Amazon.com?

Whenever Micca wants

 

Micca Store =Micca Distributor on Amazon

 

They will sometimes put a product on Amazon

 

But they may not choose to just yet. Putting it on Amazon means there will be less profit for them.

post #1274 of 3021
They don't seem to care about profits.
They don't even reply to my email.
post #1275 of 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminy View Post

They don't seem to care about profits.
They don't even reply to my email.

Micca Store is closely affiliated with many Asian sellers. Of which many have just spent CNY.

 

Did you call them or email them at the adresses listed?

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