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FiiO " Flagship " portable amp Mont Blanc/E12 discussing thread, the pre order unit arrives. - Page 83

post #1231 of 2845

Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?

 

I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...


Edited by Typhoon859 - 2/15/13 at 4:14am
post #1232 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

Anyone going to comment on the bass boost comment?

I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...

My preference is for a small amount of bass boost.
The bass heads can get another amp!

Still waiting for The Headfone Shop to get some stock!biggrin.gif

Crossing my fingers that it is V1: low bass boost.redface.gif
post #1233 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by WAYNENUMM View Post

Check out evshrug's review where he said:

And that's great what you think about the size. I haven't received mine yet, but I was a bit worried about the size also. But, I have come to the realization that it will be fine for me.

I feel like mine "settled" after only about 3 hours, the difference is too hard to quantify BUT easy to value. I think it's safe to say FiiO burns their products in a bit at the factory anyway, so your time may vary (if you hear a change at all).

I'm pleased you liked the review, took a looong time to consider it from different perspectives and applications, and how to write a fair review while allowing the strengths to shine out through the necessary compromises.
post #1234 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


My preference is for a small amount of bass boost.
The bass heads can get another amp!

Still waiting for The Headfone Shop to get some stock!biggrin.gif

Crossing my fingers that it is V1: low bass boost.redface.gif

You mean low frequency bass boost?

 

And also, it doesn't have to be one way or the other.  The E11 works for both and it's ultimately how much bass boost is necessary/wanted for the headphones you'd be using it with.  In any case, such a high boost is limiting and in the end does actually boil down to the basshead craze which doesn't make sense to me decision wise, nor does it suit the amp itself for what it is.  Bassheads tend to associate quality with almost only how much bass there is and usually go for the cheap stuff because that's often taken advantage of as a gimmick...

 

Of course I'd like this to be changed but at least an official explanation for the thought behind this would be nice...


Edited by Typhoon859 - 2/15/13 at 4:22am
post #1235 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?

I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...

3eafef50_E12FR2.jpeg
Here's James post regarding the two bass-boosts, the blue lines represent the v1 boost while the rusty red line is the "revised" boost. It really only "peaks" at around a 5 dB boost, though James earlier said before the graphs that it was like 4 dB of boost, which I assume is like looking at as "how much boost is there on average."

Technically a lot of headphones (especially Open Backed headphones) typically have a sub-bass roll off. Here's frequency charts of a few popular headphones on head-fi, to get an idea how the frequencies will "stack up" with the Mont Blanc's bass boost:
graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID%5B%5D=2931&graphID%5B%5D=2941&graphID%5B%5D=1023&graphID%5B%5D=393

Now for some "I think"s:

The Q701 I have has pretty good bass extension (though not very high dB), and rolls off just about where the Mont Blanc's (optional) boost starts kicking in. So effectively, the new combo just has deeper "bass extension" above 0 dB rather than enough to change roll-off into a "Woah!" upsweep.

Looking at the graph again, the new curve has the same "peak" boost, though slightly forward. Technically that will affect more notes and will net a stronger bass in the combo with a headphone that already has decent bass extension. However, I haven't heard the new model. And based on how much change I hear from songs featuring deep bass when I switch between on/off boost, I think it still will be a largely subtle difference (though more frequently heard). Will it still be as refined and sound as controlled? Dunno that. I know there is more to quality that isn't defined just by quantity (and of course enjoyment is flavored by personal taste). I still think the current boost is more versatile and fits really well with the Q701s smily_headphones1.gif

Here's the E11's Level 1 & 2 bass boost (on high gain, note that the graph starts at 10 Hz instead of 20 Hz like above) for reference, especially for those who have an E11 to hear now:


Surprising number of people using the Q701s here! Cool! Hey buddies!
Also, you and I may not be bassheads, and aggressive boosting may be a niche taste, but lets do what we can to respect other's tastes while asserting our own... "Catch more flies with honey," y'know?
Edited by Evshrug - 2/15/13 at 5:24am
post #1236 of 2845

Right.  That's the post I've been going off of (the one you linked and posted a chart of).  Looking at it again, I also prefer the original better, and the bass boost actually plays out as I will list.  Prior to now, I didn't realize that a lot of the other frequencies get boosted as well, and aren't based around 0.  I guess once again I didn't pay attention close enough because I wouldn't think that it would make sense to chart the graph with any kind of boost throughout the full range.  That might actually be so that the line doesn't cross between the 0 mark (in which case the low-mids would go into negative).  The following would be for the original version of the bass boost, with 1 KHz as the center point of 0 dB (these are all just approximations done based off the provided graphs by FiiO, I'd say done with a tolerance of about +/-.1 dB).  

 

Bass Boost Off-

20 KHz:  +.18 dB  

15 KHz:  +.23 dB  

10 KHz:  +.28 dB  

7.5 KHz: +.31 dB

5 KHz:    +.33 dB  

3 KHz:    +.35 dB  

2 KHz:    +.3 dB  

1 KHz:     +0 dB  

500 Hz:   -.2 dB  

300 Hz:   -.27 dB  

200 Hz:   -.34 dB  

100 Hz:   -.42 dB  

60 Hz:     -.48 dB  

50 Hz:     -.52 dB  

40 Hz:     -.68 dB  

30 Hz:     -.78 dB  

20 Hz:      -1 dB  

 

 

Bass Boost On-

20 KHz:  +.05 dB  

15 KHz:  +.19 dB  

10 KHz:  +.16 dB  

7.5 KHz: +.16 dB

5 KHz:    +.16 dB  

3 KHz:    +.18 dB  

2 KHz:    +.22 dB  

1 KHz:     +0 dB  

500 Hz:   -.2 dB

400 Hz:   -.12 dB  

300 Hz:     0 dB  

200 Hz:   +.15 dB  

100 Hz:   +.9 dB  

80 Hz:     +1.4 dB  

60 Hz:     +2.25 dB  

50 Hz:     +2.6 dB  

40 Hz:     +3.2 dB  

30 Hz:     +3.8 dB  

20 Hz:     +3.9 dB  

 

 

And BTW, in your review for the amp, you mentioned that it's sound signature initially sounded kind of cold..  Well, your brained burned in the wrong way, lol, which is actually often the case.  It's frequency response as provided by FiiO and the type of amplifier that it is would indicate exactly that.  That's what emphasized sub-bass rumbling with slightly recessed lower-mids and odd-harmonic distortion in the harshest ranges typically sounds like.  Regardless this would mean that music recorded and mastered before the 1980's (approximate number) for the most part would never sound especially pleasant (just to give you an idea as to what I'm implying), because the amps used in studios at the time had pretty much the exact opposite characteristics.  I'm all for neutral sound but calling this amp neutral would be misleading to people who hear it and associate neutral with what's realistically a cold sound signature.  That's why neutral cans also often get shunned by casual listeners because people don't realize that it's the pairing of both the amp and the headphones which give you the sound, so in the case of neutral headphones, they'd just be revealing the true nature of most solid state amplifiers, especially cheap ones.  But anyway, I shouldn't say any more than that since I haven't actually heard the amp, though at this point I would wager that I pretty much know what it sounds like, none of this at all to imply that it's not more than a decent amp otherwise, especially comparatively to most others in the price range.  

 

EDIT: Looking at it more thoroughly, the original bass boost of the E12 (but maybe with two increments like on the E11 - one by 1 dB less than the current curve by the point of 20 Hz, and one with 1 dB more) is ideal!  And, you know, if the following would be possible to integrate without any trade-offs, an extra added step wouldn't hurt either (so something like +3/+5/+7 by the end vs. the current +4) XD  Of course without increments higher, less is always better unless we're barely talking a difference...  The bass heads are of the lesser majority and shouldn't even be an influence on something.  Pandering towards the uninformed/inexperienced can't possibly ever be the right approach.  Almost everyone starts out a bass head but it's typically grown out of for many proper reasons.


Edited by Typhoon859 - 2/15/13 at 3:21pm
post #1237 of 2845
Typhoon, your 2nd narrative paragraph got away from me a bit.
1. I don't recall stating the freq response as being cold. Out of the box, by ear, I thought it sounded restrained, the detail was a smidgen held back compared to my brighter tube amp, so instead of cold I thought I was describing a signature erring on the side of dark. I'm newish to finding the vocabulary others use to describe sound (plus I'm really tired at the moment), but I'm more familiar with bright, emphasized mids/highs and dry anemic bass (which I heard with AD700), than I am with a dark, thick bass with recessed highs, type of sound (which I heard with my V-MODA LPs and woah! someone's Sony XB500), and with my Ety's, AKGs, Audio Technicas, and what I learned from other headphones, I call the Mont Blanc, overall and after burn-in, neutral because it imparts little coloration consistently noticeable between different headphones.

2. The revised E12 boost is basically in the middle between the E11's mode 1 & 2.

3. Where do you see recessed mids in the amp charts? The freq response mostly levels out after the boost effect, if anything it bows upward at the center.

Anyway, the end all result is I like my Mont Blanc.
Edited by Evshrug - 2/15/13 at 7:20am
post #1238 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?

 

I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...

 

I have found in the few hours I have used it that the bass is too much for majority of my IEM's or lower impedance phones, but for my Q701 it's just right and I wouldn't want it any other way. I really purchased the E12 for the gain since my A/V receiver on max volume wasn't really all too audible. Honestly, a desktop amp would obviously be best for the Q but buying a portable is much easier on my wallet for right now, so I'll stick to that lol.

post #1239 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post


3eafef50_E12FR2.jpeg
Here's James post regarding the two bass-boosts, the blue lines represent the v1 boost while the rusty red line is the "revised" boost. It really only "peaks" at around a 5 dB boost, though James earlier said before the graphs that it was like 4 dB of boost, which I assume is like looking at as "how much boost is there on average."

 

Since Typhoon also asked me this question in my thread, I'll respond here as well.

 

This is exactly what I heard and was able to measure. On average, E12's boost is closer to being 4dB. It's easy to test: generate a frequency sweep from 20Hz to 200Hz, then attenuate it by -4dB but keep the original track. Play the -4dB track w/ bass boost on and play the original track without bass boost. I'd bet they sound mostly the same. Or in fact, the original track (w/o bass boost) would sound louder because it's not a uniform +4dB bass boost for all frequencies. It's a curve.

post #1240 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

You mean low frequency bass boost?

 

And also, it doesn't have to be one way or the other.  The E11 works for both and it's ultimately how much bass boost is necessary/wanted for the headphones you'd be using it with.  In any case, such a high boost is limiting and in the end does actually boil down to the basshead craze which doesn't make sense to me decision wise, nor does it suit the amp itself for what it is.  Bassheads tend to associate quality with almost only how much bass there is and usually go for the cheap stuff because that's often taken advantage of as a gimmick...

 

Of course I'd like this to be changed but at least an official explanation for the thought behind this would be nice...

 

Ooops!

I meant Low Frequency Bass Boost!

post #1241 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

Right.  That's the post I've been going off of (the one you linked and posted a chart of).  Looking at it again, I also prefer the original better, and the bass boost actually plays out as I will list.  Prior to now, I didn't realize that a lot of the other frequencies get boosted as well, and aren't based around 0.  I guess once again I didn't pay attention close enough because I wouldn't think that it would make sense to chart the graph with any kind of boost throughout the full range.  That might actually be so that the line doesn't cross between the 0 mark (in which case the low-mids would go into negative).  The following would be for the original version of the bass boost, with 1 KHz as the root at 0 dB (these will all of course just be approximations, I'd say with a tolerance of about +/-.1 dB).  

 

Bass Boost Off-

20 KHz:  +.18 dB  

15 KHz:  +.23 dB  

10 KHz:  +.28 dB  

7.5 KHz: +.31 dB

5 KHz:    +.33 dB  

3 KHz:    +.35 dB  

2 KHz:    +.3 dB  

1 KHz:     +0 dB  

500 Hz:   -.2 dB  

300 Hz:   -.27 dB  

200 Hz:   -.34 dB  

100 Hz:   -.42 dB  

60 Hz:     -.48 dB  

50 Hz:     -.52 dB  

40 Hz:     -.68 dB  

30 Hz:     -.78 dB  

20 Hz:      -1 dB  

 

 

Bass Boost On-

20 KHz:  +.05 dB  

15 KHz:  +.19 dB  

10 KHz:  +.16 dB  

7.5 KHz: +.16 dB

5 KHz:    +.16 dB  

3 KHz:    +.18 dB  

2 KHz:    +.22 dB  

1 KHz:     +0 dB  

500 Hz:   -.2 dB

400 Hz:   -.12 dB  

300 Hz:     0 dB  

200 Hz:   +.15 dB  

100 Hz:   +.9 dB  

80 Hz:     +1.4 dB  

60 Hz:     +2.25 dB  

50 Hz:     +2.6 dB  

40 Hz:     +3.2 dB  

30 Hz:     +3.8 dB  

20 Hz:     +3.9 dB  

 

 

And BTW, in your review for the amp, you mentioned that it's sound signature initially sounded kind of cold..  Well, your brained burned in the wrong way, lol, which is actually often the case.  It's frequency response as provided by FiiO and the type of amplifier that it is would indicate exactly that.  That's what emphasized sub-bass rumbling with slightly recessed lower-mids and odd-harmonic distortion in the harshest ranges typically sounds like.  Regardless this would mean that music recorded and mastered before the 1980's (approximate number) for the most part would never sound especially pleasant (just to give you an idea as to what I'm implying), because the amps used in studios at the time had pretty much the exact opposite characteristics.  I'm all for neutral sound but calling this amp neutral would be misleading to people who hear it and associate neutral with what's realistically a cold sound signature.  That's why neutral cans also often get shunned by casual listeners because people don't realize that it's the pairing of both the amp and the headphones which give you the sound, so in the case of neutral headphones, they'd just be revealing the true nature of most solid state amplifiers, especially cheap ones.  But anyway, I shouldn't say any more than that since I haven't actually heard the amp, though at this point I would wager that I pretty much know what it sounds like, none of this at all to imply that it's not more than a decent amp otherwise, especially comparatively to most others in the price range.  

 

EDIT: Looking at it more thoroughly, the original bass boost of the E12 (but maybe with two increments like on the E11 - one by 1 dB less than the current curve by the point of 20 Hz, and one with 1 dB more) is ideal!  And, you know, if the following would be possible to integrate without any trade-offs, an extra added step wouldn't hurt either (so something like +3/+5/+7 by the end vs. the current +4) XD  Of course without increments higher, less is always better unless we're barely talking a difference...  The bass heads are of the lesser majority and shouldn't even be an influence on something.  Pandering towards the uninformed/inexperienced can't possibly ever be the right approach.  Almost everyone starts out a bass head but it's typically grown out of for many proper reasons.

 

Where did you get these numbers from?

A lot of these numbers are low enough to be tolerance and calibration errors.

post #1242 of 2845

Would this amp be a good match for Brainwavz Hm5 headphones?  I use a C421 now.

post #1243 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSatch View Post

Would this amp be a good match for Brainwavz Hm5 headphones?  I use a C421 now.

 

Is there something you don't like about the C421? 

post #1244 of 2845
Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?


I think what's happened is a couple of people who don't own the amp complained about the lack of boost so it has been changed.
From what I have read, everyone who has this amp likes the current bass boost and does not want it changed. I've tried to buy v1 because it looks like the superior option, to no avail.
Maybe James fiio should have a vote as at the moment this change seems to be turning people of this amp.
Edited by jiminy - 2/15/13 at 10:44am
post #1245 of 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoon859 View Post

Bassheads tend to associate quality with almost only how much bass there is and usually go for the cheap stuff because that's often taken advantage of as a gimmick...

 

Say what? blink.gif Sounds like plain bigotry to me.

 

Not that I typically care to take sides in stupid headphone arguments, as I think it's a silly thing to argue about, but this comment irked me.

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