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I Don't Understand You Subjective Guys - Page 3

post #31 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOMBEDES View Post

I wonder why they put BASS & TREBEL control  knobs on Amps?  I wonder why there are thousands of TUBE ROLLING posts on this site?  Speakers and headphones indeed.

 

Tube rolling is SUPPOSED to be about finding the 'best' combination of tubes to highlight the strengths of a given amp - not endlessly changing tubes to suit your mood. Many amps ship with basic - often the cheapest available - tubes. Its only natural that those with something better will try the replacements. 

 

As for bass and treble controls - sir, can you honestly come here and tell me that you dont know the contempt with which audiophiles hold such fripperies ? 

 

Please, for your own sake, I urge you to read the article below. Its written by a dreadful snob, but a snob who knows what he is talking about - I am told that he designed a modified Magnepan speaker which is widely regarded as the best of its kind. I have pasted his thoughts on tone controls for your edification - just as his fanaticism for tube amps and vinyl matters little to me, I have no problem with amps with tone controls, for I am a music lover and not an audiophile. History has taught me that I have to be able to live with my neighbours - I would suggest that you might like to do the same. 

 

http://www.indiespinzone.com/other/highend.html

 

Tone Controls - In almost all cases there are none. I know, you're used to 5 million bells and whistles and lights, and perhaps an lcd screen. Well, it turns out that's all crap. Good gear does not have tone controls because it doesn't need tone controls. You get a volume control, an input selector and (sometimes not even) a balance control. Why? First of all, the gear is doing it's job of reproducing the music right, so it doesn't need to be corrected. Secondly, every time the signal gets run thru something like that it gets degraded. So again, like in so many things in life, less is more. Don't be thrown by what looks like a lack of features. The features are built in. If corrections need to be made they need to be because your room has a flaw. Therefore the proper answer is to treat the rooms issue and not "break" the sound at the gear to accomodate a problem. A good example of modern "mid-fi" gear is this Jolida 502B integrated tube amp. Attractive looks, 8 tubes, a power switch and 2 controls. Your gateway to sonic bliss.

post #32 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

Newsflash - the AMP shouldn't sound like anything either. Any coloration should be down to your speakers/headphones, and many people claim they are looking for a 'neutral' headphone. Audiophiles amuse me. 

I wonder why they put BASS & TREBEL control  knobs on Amps?  I wonder why there are thousands of TUBE ROLLING posts on this site? 

Hey, I stated that a well designed DAC should be colorless, YOU stated that the Amp should also be colorless. Agree.  I WONDERED why the tone control knobs were on the various gizmos.  And, further, many "tube rollers"  claim more bass, less bass, better mid-range, higher highs and TALL, short, fat and thin soundstages etc all with the roll of a tube.  That does not sound colorless to me.  I hope to be a tube roller soon.  A life goal.  Thank you for the link, I will read with great interest.
I do not know what you are on about "Live with my neighbors" appears to be a jab.  Sorry if I have offended.  I will log out and never trouble this site again.
post #33 of 861

For everybody who says that the ODAC sounds exactly like $1000 DACs, I am assuming that you have $1000 DACs that you have to compare, right? 

post #34 of 861
Quote:
I wonder why they put BASS & TREBEL control  knobs on Amps?

 

Well actually they didn't. Not on 'audiophile' grade gear. 'Extra circuits degrade the sound quality' is the reason why not.

 

That statement brings the whole debate into focus.
 

Audiophilia started as a search for the perfectly neatral system. It wasn't attainable with the technology or funds available at the time. So you built a system around balancing imperfect components.

 

But now?

 

Audiophiles are deliberately buying coloured components that don't need to be coloured. Because they like the 'audiophile' sound.

 

It's like the entire hobby has turned itself on it's head.

 

Now we can actually get transparent gear we can afford - we don't want it anymore. We want agreeably distorted sound.

 

Why did this happen?

post #35 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOMBEDES View Post

I wonder why they put BASS & TREBEL control  knobs on Amps?  I wonder why there are thousands of TUBE ROLLING posts on this site? 

Hey, I stated that a well designed DAC should be colorless, YOU stated that the Amp should also be colorless. Agree.  I WONDERED why the tone control knobs were on the various gizmos.  And, further, many "tube rollers"  claim more bass, less bass, better mid-range, higher highs and TALL, short, fat and thin soundstages etc all with the roll of a tube.  That does not sound colorless to me.  I hope to be a tube roller soon.  A life goal.  Thank you for the link, I will read with great interest.
I do not know what you are on about "Live with my neighbors" appears to be a jab.  Sorry if I have offended.  I will log out and never trouble this site again.

 

Living with my neighbours isn't a jab - its a recognition that this is a religious issue for many. I agree with you that rolling tubes - or opamps - and making wild claims about the results is an annoying reality of life on various forums, but I cant change that. The audiophile credo, as I understand it, seems to be 'accuracy and neutrality' - like religion, I also wonder just how many practice what they preach from on high.

 

I also concede that someone changing 100kg floorstanding speakers to get the 'right' sound seems insane compared to tube or opamp rolling, but reviewers certainly do it - definitely much simpler with headphones.  

post #36 of 861

so....any capacitor substitution in the amp will have no audible effect?
 

post #37 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

 Many amps ship with basic - often the cheapest available - tubes.

yet people do the same with opamps, and they have published open loop distortion figures. their implementation into the circuit is (should be) extensively measured, so even if it's a cheap opamp to begin with, changing it, even for a more expensive opamp, will probably decrease performance. however, more often than not you'll hear about how changing to a more expensive opamp improves the sound in some audible way. can't exactly verify this effect with tubes because they aren't measured in the first place, but the expectation usually verifies itself to the tester

post #38 of 861

Once again, this really belongs in Sound Science. We have abandoned anything specific to a discussion of dedicated source components.

post #39 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphidz View Post

IMO, placebo effect only happens after long period of listening, especially when you are used to the sound sig. And I don't think this effect happens when you hear a difference only after a few seconds of listening

 

What?

post #40 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphidz View Post

It's their money so they can buy anything they want. Plus, it's subjective and not everyone's ears are the same, so maybe you hear the ODAC is good but some people may hear that the DAC1 is better

 

It's subjective, so you have to respect their opinion

Very original response. Very good indeed *sarcasm*

 

I always say value people's experiences, analyze their opinions. Opinions aren't meant to be respected. Where did you get this idea? From another insecure idiot who can't stand a good argument?  Science proves that the ODAC performs at an extremely similar level to DACs ten times its prices. If people truly enjoy spending their hard earned cash for the "fun" of it, without a care in the world for true improvement in sound quality - which seems to be the case here, because they don't CARE what the data shows -, why the insecurity? Why the anger? It's true that people who are willing to spend so much do not affect anyone else around them (well, usually). But society should discourage the growing number of fools and idiots, who will in time affect others around them. Subjectivists shouldn't be angered at objectivists for putting scientific data up their asses. It's intellectual and educational, good for the masses. People who demand their opinions respected are sometimes the most selfish beings. 

post #41 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prakhar View Post

For everybody who says that the ODAC sounds exactly like $1000 DACs, I am assuming that you have $1000 DACs that you have to compare, right? 

 

Having had a Cary Audio Xciter ($1600), I moved down to a DacMagic ($375 new when I got it).  I couldn't tell the difference in sound and was better off for it.

 

 

Why to buy a more expensive DAC?  Some of following maybe:

 

Switching

Input Types

Build Quality

Aesthetics

Origin of manufacturing

Warranty/Support

 

The ODAC does get a nod if you're looking for a no nonsense USB DAC that performs very well for the cost.  However, the first things listed present an issue for it - it's a PC only DAC and that's it.  The third will depend on the builder more than anything else.  Number four needs a nod for this because the ODAC enclosures are pretty much your de-facto project boxes with machines plates.  This provides a decent look and is cheap.  However, if someone wants something that looks as nice as say the Xciter I mentioned earlier for their desktop rig they're pretty much on their own.  Origin, some want something only made in the US - I think the ODAC is (well, not sure about board assembly) which may sway positive opinions of it, but when considering the above issues such as switching and input types the Benchmark Dacs start coming into play.  Last is support, longevity of a company and whether they will be around tomorrow to support the product is a big question with smaller builders for a lot of people.  The hit & run done by Single Power has swayed some people to stick with large and established brands after being burnt badly once.

 

As for sound, unless something is done wrong you shouldn't be able to hear a difference between DACs.  After that point one needs to look at whether one or both are done wrong, and not assume the price tag is any indicator as their's been some really pricey garbage.


Edited by Shike - 7/24/12 at 2:40am
post #42 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by NimbleTurtle View Post

Very original response. Very good indeed *sarcasm*

 

I always say value people's experiences, analyze their opinions. Opinions aren't meant to be respected. Where did you get this idea? From another insecure idiot who can't stand a good argument?  Science proves that the ODAC performs at an extremely similar level to DACs ten times its prices. If people truly enjoy spending their hard earned cash for the "fun" of it, without a care in the world for true improvement in sound quality - which seems to be the case here, because they don't CARE what the data shows -, why the insecurity? Why the anger? It's true that people who are willing to spend so much do not affect anyone else around them (well, usually). But society should discourage the growing number of fools and idiots, who will in time affect others around them. Subjectivists shouldn't be angered at objectivists for putting scientific data up their asses. It's intellectual and educational, good for the masses. People who demand their opinions respected are sometimes the most selfish beings. 

 

Then I don't give a rat's ass about your opinion. If what you are saying is true, then that is the way then I should reply to your opinion then?

 

Maybe my response is because I'm inexperienced but this is what I understand. If scientific data rules over opinions, then if the statistical data shows that item A is better than item B but instead item B is chosen as more popular by users then item A, does that mean the people are wrong and their opinions are useless because scientific data shows that item A is better than item B?

Sure I'm against spending money for the "fun" of it. They are better spending the extra money on charity or something

I'm not saying that the ODAC is bad compared to other $1000 DAC, in fact, I'm on ODAC's side since it's proven better by the mass, and not by scientific data

 

Please correct this wall of crap i just type, cause that is really appreciated

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Monkey View Post

 

What?

 

 

Well, I was relying to Xaborus reply on placebo effect. Probably I misunderstood his post, thus replied wrongly


Edited by graphidz - 7/24/12 at 3:31am
post #43 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shike View Post

 

Having had a Cary Audio Xciter ($1600), I moved down to a DacMagic ($375 new when I got it).  I couldn't tell the difference in sound and was better off for it.

 

 

Why to buy a more expensive DAC?  Some of following maybe:

 

Switching

Input Types

Build Quality

Aesthetics

Origin of manufacturing

Warranty/Support

 

The ODAC does get a nod if you're looking for a no nonsense USB DAC that performs very well for the cost.  However, the first things listed present an issue for it - it's a PC only DAC and that's it.  The third will depend on the builder more than anything else.  Number four needs a nod for this because the ODAC enclosures are pretty much your de-facto project boxes with machines plates.  This provides a decent look and is cheap.  However, if someone wants something that looks as nice as say the Xciter I mentioned earlier for their desktop rig they're pretty much on their own.  Origin, some want something only made in the US - I think the ODAC is (well, not sure about board assembly) which may sway positive opinions of it, but when considering the above issues such as switching and input types the Benchmark Dacs start coming into play.  Last is support, longevity of a company and whether they will be around tomorrow to support the product is a big question with smaller builders for a lot of people.  The hit & run done by Single Power has swayed some people to stick with large and established brands after being burnt badly once.

 

As for sound, unless something is done wrong you shouldn't be able to hear a difference between DACs.  After that point one needs to look at whether one or both are done wrong, and not assume the price tag is any indicator as their's been some really pricey garbage.

 

All of this will come as news to Steve Nugent and Gordon Rankin. Apparently they have completely wasted most of their working lives trying to build a better mousetrap - who knew that some guys at Head-Fi had the answer all along. 

post #44 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post

 

All of this will come as news to Steve Nugent and Gordon Rankin. Apparently they have completely wasted most of their working lives trying to build a better mousetrap - who knew that some guys at Head-Fi had the answer all along. 

 

I can't tell if this is a sarcastic quip (because internet), but either way they're hardly the first guys that have tried to re-invent the wheel so to speak.  Unfortunately we found out what makes a good wheel quite a while ago.  Some aim towards making the best wheel possible considering that, and others . . . not so much.

post #45 of 861

Gosh, just smile, nod and be glad you haven't emptied your wallets like those subjective fools. How hard can it be?

 

With blind testing though, placebo effect goes out the window and truly transparent amps are indistinguishable, so blind testing is subjective without placebo (which many subjectivists suffer from.) If you can't stand the sound because the amp is bad, fair enough. If you can't stand the sound because the amp is cheap but in fact indistinguishable from a Benchmark DAC1 then you're... not thinking very straight. Amps are supposed to be straight wire with gain and I like keeping it that way. A SS amp can be eq'ed to sound like pretty much any tube.

 

Well.. I don't mean to offend anyone, but how people spend their money is their own choice. If they feel a $1500 DAC/AMP sounds better than a $100 one it's their choosing. Like I said, just smile and nod. My friends think I'm mad spending over $500 on audio but I think it's justified. Problem? Heck, aren't us head-fier's all crazy in the eyes of the general public.

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