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Why dynamic drivers have better bass than BA drivers? - Page 3

post #31 of 73
no, phonaks with green filters still have no sub bass rumble. maybe the 232 that i have not auditioned yet.
post #32 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofastreamer View Post

no, phonaks with green filters still have no sub bass rumble. maybe the 232 that i have not auditioned yet.

 

Even with the gray filters they have no low bass rolloff, quite the contrary. If you prefer an even steeper rise in low-bass response, then that, as I said, is perfectly fine- you pay the money and you get to choose what sound you prefer- but it's not accurate reproduction and its absence is a plus, not a minus, for critical listeners to acoustic music.


Edited by supersleuth - 7/11/12 at 9:58am
post #33 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofastreamer View Post

no, phonaks with green filters still have no sub bass rumble. maybe the 232 that i have not auditioned yet.

 

I have no clue why you hear it this way, but the green filters dig deeper than is needed.  I get the sufficient sub-bass.  Same goes with the 232, but the 232 has more of a mid-low bass focus.  I agree with everything Supersleuth said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supersleuth View Post

 

Even with the gray filters they have no low bass rolloff, quite the contrary. If you prefer an even steeper rise in low-bass response, then that, as I said, is perfectly fine- you pay the money and you get to choose what sound you prefer- but it's not accurate reproduction and its absence is a plus, not a minus, for critical listeners to acoustic music.

post #34 of 73
it is not what we are discussing, that for a lot of people bass on phonaks is enough. we are talking about what a lot of other people are looking for. even more rumble. why do you think monster products are that successful? it is not because they are accurate. the thread starter askee for bass on ba vs dynamic and it is a fact that no universal ba gives you as much bass as most of the dynamics do.
post #35 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofastreamer View Post

it is not what we are discussing, that for a lot of people bass on phonaks is enough. we are talking about what a lot of other people are looking for. even more rumble. why do you think monster products are that successful? it is not because they are accurate. the thread starter askee for bass on ba vs dynamic and it is a fact that no universal ba gives you as much bass as most of the dynamics do.


The thread title says "better", not more. And the OP claimed that "everybody" agrees. Not so.

post #36 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersleuth View Post


The thread title says "better", not more. And the OP claimed that "everybody" agrees. Not so.

Better is in the eye of the beholder. Don't arrest me bass police but I'm with sofastreamer on this one. Most universal BA iems I've tried, while having tight and accurate bass, often have a sub bass roll off sooner than desired. It's not much good if the bass is technically there but the brain doesn't register it.

post #37 of 73

With this thread I am getting an impression that dynamic drivers deliver more “moving air” which is better for bass…….we go for better seal with IME for isolation and ear drums is where these moving air will hit and end…….resulting a lot of pressure on them and this will result hearing problems in long run……for this reason BA must be much safer for ears than dynamic drivers

post #38 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicinmymind View Post

With this thread I am getting an impression that dynamic drivers deliver more “moving air” which is better for bass…….we go for better seal with IME for isolation and ear drums is where these moving air will hit and end…….resulting a lot of pressure on them and this will result hearing problems in long run……for this reason BA must be much safer for ears than dynamic drivers

 

I don't know how many times I've said this...  Neither moves more air.  The amount of air they move is dependent on their tuning.  Any BA can be retuned to move as much air as a dynamic.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

This is misconception number one...  They both can move the same amount of air.  The amount of air moved is referenced in the pressure the driver can produce for a given frequency.  A BA driver is well capable of producing x dB at 20 Hz just like a dynamic driver can produce x dB and 20 Hz...  I'll say the same about 30, 40, 50...  100...  And even lower than 20 if it can go that low.  BA drivers can produce the same dB as a dynamic can.  Why am I talking about dB?  Simple, dB is a logarithmic measure of Pascals.  Pascals are a unit for air pressure.  dB is a measure of air pressure.  A dB is a dB, whether it comes from a floor speaker or a BA driver. 

 

post #39 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

I don't know how many times I've said this...  Neither moves more air.  The amount of air they move is dependent on their tuning.  Any BA can be retuned to move as much air as a dynamic.  

 

 

I agree with dispelling the myth that dynamics move air more than BAs but "Any BA" is perhaps going too far. Thats like saying a desktop full range speaker can be tuned to produce adequate sub bass.. which it can't. I mean I'm sure you could tune it to do so but not in sufficient quantity. There are of course BAs out there that can satisfy but they aren't cheap enough yet.

post #40 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by wahu View Post

I agree with dispelling the myth that dynamics move air more than BAs but "Any BA" is perhaps going too far. Thats like saying a desktop full range speaker can be tuned to produce adequate sub bass.. which it can't. I mean I'm sure you could tune it to do so but not in sufficient quantity. There are of course BAs out there that can satisfy but they aren't cheap enough yet.


"Sufficient quantity" for whom, is the question. As already demonstrated, there are plenty of affordable single-BA IEMS that have essentially flat, or in some cases even gently rising, response all the way down to 20 Hz (and other than the very longest- and rarely used- organ pipes there's nothing acoustic that generates much energy down that far anyway). I'm older than a lot of you so I remember when the concept of "high fidelity" meant something...

post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersleuth View Post


"Sufficient quantity" for whom, is the question. As already demonstrated, there are plenty of affordable single-BA IEMS that have essentially flat, or in some cases even gently rising, response all the way down to 20 Hz (and other than the very longest- and rarely used- organ pipes there's nothing acoustic that generates much energy down that far anyway). I'm older than a lot of you so I remember when the concept of "high fidelity" meant something...

Like I said before it's in the eye of the beholder.. But I guess the point I was making there was also that size matters. You can't tune a tiny BA to provide satisfactory deep bass extension. A tiny dynamic will suffer the same limitations as a tiny BA. My personal preference would be to have a nice mothership of a BA or a nice dynamic but to each his own there. 

post #42 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by wahu View Post

Like I said before it's in the eye of the beholder.. But I guess the point I was making there was also that size matters. You can't tune a tiny BA to provide satisfactory deep bass extension. A tiny dynamic will suffer the same limitations as a tiny BA. My personal preference would be to have a nice mothership of a BA or a nice dynamic but to each his own there. 


Again, for those to whom "satisfactory" means reasonably accurate reproduction of the signal fed into them, that's just 100% false . And you are also completely failing to take into account that the amount of air in your ear canal is also tiny.

 

You're entitled to your own preferences but not to your own facts.

post #43 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersleuth View Post


Again, for those to whom "satisfactory" means reasonably accurate reproduction of the signal fed into them, that's just 100% false . And you are also completely failing to take into account that the amount of air in your ear canal is also tiny.

 

You're entitled to your own preferences but not to your own facts.

? I think you misunderstood me. By tiny I mean tiny not the standard size BA that is already proven to go to 20hz. If you take a standard BA that goes to 20hz and shrink it it will cease provide satisfactory deep bass.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by supersleuth View Post

 I'm older than a lot of you so I remember when the concept of "high fidelity" meant something...

I'm guessing you don't frequent many clubs. You would probably love my UE600s.


Edited by wahu - 7/12/12 at 8:10am
post #44 of 73

BAs are already tiny. If they make a tinier one they do it for a specialty. Micro Dynamic drivers get bass by more excursion. There's ways to compensate but there's trade offs in everyhing. Efficiency, mass vs speed, case size etc. In fact, a larger dynamic driver in the same small sealed case if more damped and restricted by back presuure than a smaller one. A smaller driver may actually go lower in a more linear fashion in the same size case due to freer excursion. Venting becomes a solution It it effectively creates a larger case with less back pressure) but venting can actually change it's effectivness by level as the vent varies it's restriction with the amount of air mass trying to move through it. It's not like a bass port and also will lessen isolation. It does tend to free up many dynamics from being overdamped and allow them to sound more 'open'.


Edited by goodvibes - 7/12/12 at 8:48am
post #45 of 73

That's interesting. In another thread I was asking why UM seem to no longer use a vented dynamic driver in the merlin. Any thoughts on that? The rooth lsx5 also seems to use the new driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

BAs are already tiny. If they make a tinier one they do it for a specialty. 

They are already tiny and that may explain why most universal iems I've tried seem to run out of puff down low. Most customs seem to use larger BAs for bass and smaller ones for mids and treble. My understanding of the science behind it is limited but there is an obvious correlation between size and frequency response that can't be simply altered with "tuning".

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