or Connect
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › Why dynamic drivers have better bass than BA drivers?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Why dynamic drivers have better bass than BA drivers? - Page 2

post #16 of 73

dynamic drivers are stiff, light and comparatively large diaphragms with a voice coil in the center. The size of these are often 10X to the openings of a BA, this means that more air is moved. The feeling of deep bass is a result of the movement of a lot of air at speed, which requires a large diaphragm with enough force to move a large volume of air fast. Furthermore, your ear is better adapted to handling midrange frequencies, and things like subbass need to be played at a much higher volume in order for you to hear them, which requires even more air to be moved.  A BA diaphragm is much smaller and cannot move as much air.

 

Think about a drum 10 ft across and a drum half a foot across. If hit with the same force, which will be able to produce more bass?  No matter how hard you hit the small drum, you'd be hard pressed to get a similar bass response.  

 

And for the others that may try to correct me, I know that it also has to do with resonant frequency, but understand also that bass production is much easier with a larger diaphragm.

post #17 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by grapefruit View Post

dynamic drivers are stiff, light and comparatively large diaphragms with a voice coil in the center. The size of these are often 10X to the openings of a BA, this means that more air is moved. The feeling of deep bass is a result of the movement of a lot of air at speed, which requires a large diaphragm with enough force to move a large volume of air fast. Furthermore, your ear is better adapted to handling midrange frequencies, and things like subbass need to be played at a much higher volume in order for you to hear them, which requires even more air to be moved.  A BA diaphragm is much smaller and cannot move as much air.

 

Think about a drum 10 ft across and a drum half a foot across. If hit with the same force, which will be able to produce more bass?  No matter how hard you hit the small drum, you'd be hard pressed to get a similar bass response.  

 

And for the others that may try to correct me, I know that it also has to do with resonant frequency, but understand also that bass production is much easier with a larger diaphragm.

 

Please read this...  A dB is a dB.  Air moved is air pressure created which is a Pascal which is embedded in the dB scale...  

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

This is misconception number one...  They both can move the same amount of air.  The amount of air moved is referenced in the pressure the driver can produce for a given frequency.  A BA driver is well capable of producing x dB at 20 Hz just like a dynamic driver can produce x dB and 20 Hz...  I'll say the same about 30, 40, 50...  100...  And even lower than 20 if it can go that low.  BA drivers can produce the same dB as a dynamic can.  Why am I talking about dB?  Simple, dB is a logarithmic measure of Pascals.  Pascals are a unit for air pressure.  dB is a measure of air pressure.  A dB is a dB, whether it comes from a floor speaker or a BA driver. 

 

@OP: with that said, what you said is actually false.  Dynamics aren't better than BAs at bass.  BAs aren't better than dynamics at bass.  So why do some dynamics sound better than some BAs?  The same reason headphones sound different.  Tuning.  They are simply tuned to better show low-end frequencies.  Many BAs are tuned to the low end as well.  Look at the Phonak PFE232 for example or even the Phonak PFE022.  Weston 3s...  Even things like the MEE A151 have a nice warm signature.  It all depends on the tuning. 

 
post #18 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

Please read this...  A dB is a dB.  Air moved is air pressure created which is a Pascal which is embedded in the dB scale...  

 

 

 

I read a lot on here about dynamic drivers having a "moving air" feeling but I've also heard BA driven iems produce that sensation. When shopping around though it does seem like dynamic drivers have a price advantage over BA drivers regarding deep bass.

post #19 of 73

They are different and have their assets but there are no absolutes. Diaphragm size and resonant point like the drum example means little in an in ear that is moving air pistonically without propagating waves in the ear canal. A larger diaphram doesn't need to move as much to create the same force but if the BA can already move enough, there's no advantage. Their construction tend to make it easier for one to have more bass and the other better for highs but we've heard both do the other's speciality quite well. What's in an ien shouldn't bias your ears one way or the other.


Edited by goodvibes - 7/10/12 at 10:06pm
post #20 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

...TWFK has a cap for high pass built in unless removed. ...

The normal TWFK doesn't have any cap or vent, at least not to my knowledge. TWFK is original design to have TWo FK series BA receiver made into one unit to doubt the SPL, hence the name. Any added caps will be special requested from the buyer for tuning (and even likely to be done by the buyer), not the manufacturer. Remember also, there are two kind of vented BA. The first is vented outer housing, which is actually not quite as rare as many thought (SA6, Aurvana In-Ear2, some FAD). The 2nd is BA with vented hole on the BA unit itself, and I believe UE holds the patents on that.

Anyway, it seems most of the discussion miss the relationship of transient / decay (ringing) and harmonic distortion to bass but solely talking about FR curve. I would think those are important parameters to consider as well in discussion of bass (ans especially texture). These are where dynamic tends to be better perform than BA (for producing better body and textured bass), at least IMO.
post #21 of 73

http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/TWFK-30017-000.pdf  Now that I look closer, I think you're right about the cap. Looks like it may have just been added for test measurements but the available vent is there.


Edited by goodvibes - 7/10/12 at 10:23pm
post #22 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/TWFK-30017-000.pdf  Now that I look closer, I think you're right about the cap. Looks like it may have just been added for test measurements but the available vent is there.

I think Knowles makes them so they can be used as woofer/tweeter if wanted, but that's an option that is left for the user to decide. In most case, like B2 and such, manufacturer just solder the two receivers as one, since FK series doesn't actually have much bass even used as dedicated bass unit. They probably be better off with another, bigger BA for bass and use the whole TWFK for tweeter (which they are good for) and make them into a three driver with a better price tag.
post #23 of 73

I forgot they were often used that way, makes sense.

post #24 of 73

AKG 


"BA drivers , are distinguished by the outstanding performance on midrange and high-frequency sounds.
Due to the diaphragm's high excursion level, the dynamic drivers represent good bass quality."
post #25 of 73

Both tilt of the square and the difference from ringing matter, as well as frequency response. M2 is "bassy" in so far as providing too much midbass, while ER-4P ringing "hides" the bass.

THD+N graphs describe ringing behavior and can be a real clue indeed, as loose bass can be seen on those as well.

 

Shure SE315 uses a relatively cheap single bass BA (weird choice by Shure), these have obvious limitations at the highest end, UE600 uses a newer wideband armature and the best wideband, F1-BA-SB.

Compare against possibly best single bass BA: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/KlipschX10.pdf

Now against an old (first?) dual BA, Jays q-Jays: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/JaysqJAY.pdf

I'd love a bass square wave chart of a modern multi-BA like one of TWFK based IEMs. And indeed, there are better bass armatures.

 

I'm pretty sure the common opinion has been formed based on earlier attempts at single armatures. Which are still suprisingly sometimes sold and even expensive! (e.g. ER-4S, HF5) This is compounded by the fact that many custom BA IEMs are tuned for flat "analytic" bass and boosted highs.

(ClieOS: I really suspect that SE-5 is even better controlled than SE-3, as there's perfect square wave performance down to 30 Hz. Guess that newer bass armature "pays for itself".)

 

The one thing Tyll's graphs don't show is lowest end frequency response accurately enough, it's often missing subbass rolloff. Even GE graphs are "no guarantee" there, but they tend to match my experience far closer.


Edited by AstralStorm - 7/11/12 at 6:40am
post #26 of 73

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, you can go here to verify for yourself that an HF5 can put out plenty of energy at 30 Hz (as can also be seen in the Headroom or Golden Ears FR curves.)

 

People are entitled to prefer whatever kind of FR works for them, but not to pretend that accurate transducers are somehow lacking. Not everybody likes boosted bass.  It tends to work badly for purely acoustic music (which by the way doesn't tend to even have much energy below 60 Hz or so.)


Edited by supersleuth - 7/11/12 at 7:01am
post #27 of 73
my 2cent: the only ba based iem i know that can deliver proper sub bass rumble are the ue11pro, compact monitors stage two and stage 4. i am sure that jh also has some, but i do not know them.

i listened to all the available top tier ba based universal iem and none of them was able to give some kind of rumble the way the customs do. tf10 and sm3 point in the right direction but still are not sufficient. it does not have to do with the number of drivers, because the stage 2 is a dual driver. i guess it must be the dimension of the housings.

that said, if you want bass, go dynamic or custom and do not even look at ba based universals. maybe if you want stupid midbass "plops" like the w3 has they could be interesting.
post #28 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofastreamer View Post

 it does not have to do with the number of drivers, because the stage 2 is a dual driver. i guess it must be the dimension of the housings.
 

May be they use ported BA.

post #29 of 73

IMO, for many people, "bass" is related to the impact or slam of the air into the ear canal.  The lowest bass notes can more be felt by your body as "heard," but technically "bass" is simply the low/lowest frequencies a speaker can produce.  Just measuring Hz, BA drivers can reproduce tones just as low as a dynamic drivers.  They are both moving some air, sound waves, but the design of the dynamic driver (a diaphram that moves back and forth) is typically moving more air inside the ear canal, so the "perceived" bass seems more or deeper because the accompanying impact or slam of the bass is felt.  But 20 Hz, whether accompanied by lots of air movement or minimal air movement, is still 20 Hz.

post #30 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmhaynes View Post

IMO, for many people, "bass" is related to the impact or slam of the air into the ear canal.  The lowest bass notes can more be felt by your body as "heard," but technically "bass" is simply the low/lowest frequencies a speaker can produce.  Just measuring Hz, BA drivers can reproduce tones just as low as a dynamic drivers.  They are both moving some air, sound waves, but the design of the dynamic driver (a diaphram that moves back and forth) is typically moving more air inside the ear canal, so the "perceived" bass seems more or deeper because the accompanying impact or slam of the bass is felt.  But 20 Hz, whether accompanied by lots of air movement or minimal air movement, is still 20 Hz.


As already pointed out, there is no mystical sense of "moving air" that is not exactly the same thing as energy output shown on a FR graph. And single BA IEMs can easily be tuned to tilt response as much toward the bass as you like (viz. the Phonak green filters).

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › Why dynamic drivers have better bass than BA drivers?