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# Vsonic GR07 MK2 - stunning new cable! | bio-cel tech IEM | now with review - see 2nd post - Page 7

Originally Posted by AstralStorm

Output impedance tends to be most noticeable.

There's obviously noise performance, voltage gain and current capability. THD+N, IMD and jitter as of nonlinearities, but it's a really lousy amplifier that fails there horribly.

And in case of portables, battery life.

About FiiO E6, it is a decent amp if you don't require lots of drive power - ok for IEMs and many headphones. Not strong enough to drive orthodynamics or high impedance versions.

(But definitely can drive something 80 Ohm and reasonable sensitivity like Beyerdynamic DT1350, unlike many portable sources.)

It has pretty short battery life. Not sure if anything can beat it at its price level - it can definitely beat many amplifiers built into cheaper DAPs and cellphones and due to impedance issues, even some soundcards.

I can't tell if you're provoking me, or just......

The amplifier in the Fiio E6 is the same as in many smartphones, PCI sound-cards tend to use higher grade parts in the amp section.

The Teclast X19+ or X19HD can beat it at it's price level.

The noise performance isn't very good.

You missed perhaps the most important measurement which is sine wave delivery.

Aside from all this accuracy you're aiming for (the Fiio E6 isn't accurate, the OPA1611 is), electric guitar amplifiers are usually distorted and coloured yet people love their sound, and there are various types of videocamera lenses for different applications, just like different microphones capture frequency response completely differently, so you have to respect all this technology and equipment.

1 ohm output impedance and flat FR is really futile compared to the reality of sound quality.

I think everyone should spend their money on quality equipment and quality IEM's, then they can enjoy music more and appreciate sound quality more, not just parrot specs which are only small pieces of a puzzle.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki

The R04 has a swivel design nozzle too, btw... it's just very stiff.

Lucky I'm trying to continue my Spiritual Journey of Love.......There was another day, where I could add to this Comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki

Right, and less than 1 ohm output impedance is only a new reference standard, we could have made it 10 ohm or 20 ohm.

The Sony XBA-3 almost sounded nicer with 32 ohm output impedance rather than 1, since that effectively lessened the bass and heightened the treble.  I think the bass isn't very good quality in that IEM so I initially felt like it sounded nicer with it 'turned off'.

Long story short there is a lot more to an amplifier than output impedance, yes?

Back to looking at tracking.

LOL Yeah how's that rev coming along

Originally Posted by Freefallr4545

LOL Yeah how's that rev coming along

 Item No. Posting Date Status Date Status Description 06-07-2012 09-07-2012 Despatched to overseas (Country code: XX)

VSonic IEMs are relatively easy to drive (with exception of GR01 perhaps), feel free to ignore most of this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiteki

I'm not sure you're not trolling, as you're not making any sense. There's a difference between statements and facts. You're not giving any of the latter and lots of the former. I'm giving this one final reply.

THD+N is a direct measure of linearity of a single sine wave delivery. And any other bandlimited wave by the Fourier theorem. IMD is a measure of delivery of two sine waves close in frequency and the resulting modulation products. (These products cause a real life "violation" of Fourier theorem.)

Square waves and impulses don't apply, they're not bandlimited, but still, anything stable will not ring badly and almost any amplifier is fast enough. It still happens that someone releases a borderline unstable amplifier, e.g. the AMB Mini3, which shows broken behavior even on my cheap 25 MHz scope; or a DAP with a broken lowpass filter/not fast enough, like aforementioned Hifiman HM-601.

Jitter is a bit more elusive, but it's typically not a problem, with an exception of misdesigned class D amps.

HDA Intel implementation are either hit or miss. (For instance, mine is miss with all BA IEMs I have due to relatively high output impedance. Otherwise excellent quality.)

Many internal soundcards have a real hard time dealing with RF interference and this is what kills the performance. Like hearing that buzzing noise every time you move the mouse or use the hard disk? I don't either. The better HDA implementations tend to avoid the noise by careful placement of the chip and analog section, but you can't do that with a card - it will almost always be near the mainboard chipset.

So there's typically a noticeable quality gap between internal soundcards and sound chips in bad implementations versus sound chips in good implementations and external soundcards/DACs.

"Higher grade" (whatever that means) parts are relatively unimportant. You can make a good amp out of 80s parts by applying every trick in the book and being careful about component placement. Heck, certain 80s parts still can beat or equal modern ones. (Example: NE5532 which is darn good and cheap. NJM4580 which is really low noise and also cheap.)

The only "high end" parts I'd pick is a good electrolytic capacitor for power supply decoupling - so that it doesn't break after a year (that's about \$0.3 difference) and a very good potentiometer (otherwise channel imbalance can ensue), unless the amp is to have fixed volume (really cheap) or highly switchable gain. (quite expensive)

Capacitors, inductors and resistors in the audio route don't matter too much unless you use something entirely wrong (e.g. carbon capacitor or a high ESR inductor) or mismatch values badly. (Can happen with certain cheap parts - not really an issue when building a single piece, huge QC issue for mass production.)

[EDIT: I forgot one place where I'd pay for "high end": sockets and jacks. There's nothing more frustrating than those failing.]

For example, a simple act of placing volume control at the output instead of input has major benefits for IEM performance by cutting current noise. Similarly trying to keep low impedance values everywhere. (Relatively easy with SMD parts.) Also not mixing power supply paths with signal paths and properly grounding everything. (E.g. keeping digital ground far from analog ground, important for DACs with low PSRR opamps like AD8620.)

On the other hand, you can make a lousy amplifier full of buzzwords (e.g. class D monoblock with heavily filtered power supply) as well as RF, jitter and other kinds of distortion. Done that once on a breadboard, got smarter since.

Feel free to have a blind test of volume matched amplifiers some day. It's relatively easy to set up even, need a switchbox, identical looking cables, something to hide the amplifiers and another person to wire it up. (For single blinding - double blind requires extra careful planning and impersonal means of communicating the end of trial.) You need to decide on a number of trials before the test (minimum 8 for a pair according to blind Bayesian conditional probability) and generate a random wiring list.

Then you have to do multiple attempts to label each of the amplifiers (e.g. "FiiO E6", "Leckerton UHA-4", "Teclast X16HD", "FiiO E17") to prove that you can discern them and assign a numeric "quality" value to it.

For 8 trials, you need all of them to succeed perfectly. For 12 trials, you need to succeed at minimum 10 for 95% confidence.

The main issue with FiiO devices is the relatively cheap build quality in places and the fact that their wide assortment has some outright bad devices (E3, E5, E9), mediocre (E10, E11) and some good ones. (E6, E7, E17)

Why do you assert that E6 isn't accurate? Care to back up your assertion with some proof?

It measures and sounds quite decently, but is not completely transparent. Has some definitely audible minor RF issue that can be picked by highly sensitive IEMs. (buzzy noise floor, but very quiet)The slight THD+N lack of performance is almost inaudible, but there.

All this is only noticeable when directly compared to an amplifier that's ~5x more expensive. (For example, E17, Prodigy Cube's output.)

The main issue is that E6 is relatively sensitive to RF noise, e.g. "cellphone" blips and that FiiO has some QC issues with the volume control, causing tracking and channel balance issues in some models. It's better than some of the more exotic CMoys out there in fact.

I didn't know about Teclast [X19HD specifically], but from what I could find, it's does not seem clearly superior to E6 and has even lower output power. Might be too quiet with even some relatively easy to drive headphones as E6 is already marginal. (50 mW at 32 Ohm in X19HD; 60 mW at 32 Ohm in E6)

E6 is quite a bit stronger than what you have in many smartphones, but not a class better quality. You can also use it to reduce output impedance if it's too high. You shouldn't buy it to improve output quality in general, unless the source has lots of common mode noise.

(HTC and LG are the worst offenders on impedance due to capacitive coupled outputs. Motorola and certain Sony models have relatively high noise which is cleaned up nicely by an amp. Samsung, iPhone and other Sony are good regardless of amplification.)

Edited by AstralStorm - 7/10/12 at 7:55pm
I'm un-subbing from this thread. It's turned into anything but information about GRO7 MKII. Honestly, people are very interested in the GRO7 MKII, information about it or the cable for a large majority of the posts is anything but.. If you two want to debate other topics go and get a room somewhere else.

Nice one guys.

Yeah AstralStorm, can you start a new thread for your latest post please?  "The Fiio E6 is the ultimate amplifier ever"

This discussion started with "New Vsonic cable!!" to you saying "only capacitors and resistors can change a cable" to "dynamic drivers all  have linear phase" to my question "Why does Beyerdynamic sometimes release the same headphone in 16, 250 and 600 ohm versions?" which you decided to not answer (why does this always happen to me in these discussions?), you then took impedance off topic into amplifiers in post #77.

As for post #95 I have blind tested the differences and you can see the extremely poor performance in a dScope, at a certain place you're not linking to yet copy-pasting all your assertions from?

...and Inks please don't discuss FR or $\scriptstyle Z$ in this thread either, you know there is a hell of a lot more to IEM's than that.

...and goodvibes no synergy / implementation circuit comments either. ;)

Edited by kiteki - 7/10/12 at 8:37pm

So back to Vsonic what does everyone think of their other models so far?

H20 do you have the first edition GR07 to compare with?

Edited by kiteki - 7/10/12 at 7:51pm

Does the Vsonic R02PROⅡ have a pure silver cable as well?

At that price someone may as well buy it just to cut off the cable and reterminate it with Sony connectors for the EX800ST / EX1000?

In my experience, reterminating a stock cable of cheap IEM's is pretty much a nightmare.

Hey Kiteki, any hints or tips to try with the GR07 MkII? I'm getting one fairly soon!

I think it's called the MK2, since MKII is mixing roman numerals with the latin alphabet, or it's saying "thousand thousand two".

Hints or tips, the R04 sounds nicer with the stock tip pushed all the way down, past the second ridge.

Try using a Copper extension cable, to see if you can hear any difference in the Silver, I can't see why no one has tried this...

Edited by kiteki - 7/10/12 at 8:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki

Does the Vsonic R02PROⅡ have a pure silver cable as well?

At that price someone may as well buy it just to cut off the cable and reterminate it with Sony connectors for the EX800ST / EX1000?

Yeah, I dont think that any cable is pure silver, its almost costly forbiden and doesnt improve that much from the good ol' cooper. Plus I think that silver as gold cant handle too much mechanical stress.

Well K isn't really a roman numeral...

Hmm, that's something I'll try. Did you find that it played well with any type of amp (e.g.  analytical ones, or warmer ones)? I'm definitely going to pick a new one up in the near future.

Pure silver isn't that expensive at quantities used in a cable. That said, there are better silver alloys for cables if you *really* want to use one.

(It's pointless at audio frequencies.)

Kiteki, you're raising and misrepresenting points randomly, this is called trolling.

DT880 32 Ohm vs 250 Ohm vs 600 Ohm are same headphone. The difference is extremely minor, in damping.

If these were dynamic driver IEMs, the ringing would be even less affected, as the excursion length is tiny.

GR07 (mk2 or not) is a dynamic driver and a small one at that. (but not an undampened microdriver like in RE272)

Moving armature and especially BA IEMs might be more dependent on electrical damping (there are versions with ferrofluids for mechanical damping, as normal BA is quite resonant), so I'm not so sure about those.

Edited by AstralStorm - 7/10/12 at 9:47pm

Originally Posted by sinquito

Yeah, I dont think that any cable is pure silver, its almost costly forbiden and doesnt improve that much from the good ol' cooper. Plus I think that silver as gold cant handle too much mechanical stress.

# What Is 4N Silver?

X
Steve LaNore

Steve LaNore has written and produced broadcast reports/specials and printed literature since 1985 and been a Web writer since 2000. His science blogs/reports can be seen on the Web site of KXII-TV. LaNore is a five-time award-winning meteorologist and member of the American Meterological Society as well as a Certified Broadcast Meteorologist sealholder. He holds a Bachelor of Science in meteorology from Texas A&M University.

4N silver is of much higher purity than sterling.

Silver is widely used in coinage, jewelry, electronics, decorative metalwork and tableware. Each of these uses a different mixture of silver alloys. For example, sterling silver used for tea sets and flatware contains 92.5 percent silver and 7.5 percent copper. United States pre-1965 silver coins contain an alloy of 90 percent silver and 10 percent copper. Silver is refined very close to 100 percent purity only for speciality applications.

Now look up 7N and UPOCC ;)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Neotech-Wire-UPOCC-Solid-Core-7N-Silver-24AWG-Teflon-/320776968036

Originally Posted by tzjin

Well K isn't really a roman numeral...

Hmm, that's something I'll try. Did you find that it played well with any type of amp (e.g.  analytical ones, or warmer ones)? I'm definitely going to pick a new one up in the near future.

I don't think the Vsonic R04 has much source transparency, so it didn't change much from amplifier to amplifier, I'm hoping the GR07 MK2 will be better there and will experiment with amplifiers and op-amps when it arrives.

So something like OPA627 versus AD797.

Like I said earlier I've already blind-tested the differences for myself and I don't think these companies are making high spec chips for nothing. ;)

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• Vsonic GR07 MK2 - stunning new cable! | bio-cel tech IEM | now with review - see 2nd post

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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › Vsonic GR07 MK2 - stunning new cable! | bio-cel tech IEM | now with review - see 2nd post