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Vsonic GR07 MK2 - stunning new cable! | bio-cel tech IEM | now with review - see 2nd post - Page 4

post #46 of 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

Different guitar cables are due to pretty large differences in capacitance - in other words, it's no longer a valid cable.

It's an "audiophile" trick as old as they come, you add a resistor and/or capacitor in the "cable".

 

I wouldn't put such an "eq" beyond VSonic, but perhaps this is actually a driver change...

While it may affect some guitar cables, at the output and input impedance's of the gear in question, it's almost impossible to introduce enough passive capacitance or resistance with a cable that length to affect anything at it's mid high frequency peak. Any added resistance will be unmeasurable and we're talking picofarads when something like 1/4mf would be needed to have any effect on 10khz. Perhaps they found a cable reflection or the new cable just sounds less etched to mitigate the peak... or they did something else and are calling it the cable. I'm a believer that we can hear things we can't explain. Sometimes we try so hard to understand things that we get further off track.

I'm just glad it was addressed since I found it beyond my comfort level on an otherwise vg product.


Edited by goodvibes - 7/7/12 at 6:35pm
post #47 of 981

I'm gonna chime in, firstly I do believe in burn in even though I have only listen dynamic drivers, (this was most obvious with my Sunrise Xcited and Koss ksc 75), cable do matter, I made my on Pannie HJE900 cable with two nokia chargers and a usb cable and it sounds most full than the stock one (american version) and the sleek audio one (this sounded too thin), lastly I took apart the cancel button audio of my Koss sparkplug and add a 75 ohm resistance in the right and left channel, the iems were obviously harder to drive, but didnt sound as boomy and the change was pretty obvious for the best (more clarity and space/soundstage). I'm going to start studying Electronic Engineering the next Agust, maybe latter I will be able to do a better/more scientific opinion.

 

Sorry If I am beeing a noob and for writting like ****.

post #48 of 981

Oh boy, *please no flame war, please no flame war.*

 

ANYWAYS, can't wait for the review! biggrin.gif

post #49 of 981
Thread Starter 

Yeah uh, you can have cable flame wars, but try to keep it related to the cable in question, we're talking about improving Copper to Silver here, and adding more strands to the Silver cable, so it's thicker, I'm not sure about the purity level, but it's clear they want that to be as high as possible, too.

 

I really don't think this is a case of "let's put secret resistors in the cable" or "let's put Lead and Nickel in the cable" to alter the sound in a negative fashion.

 

If you think that's the case you're very welcome to open your GR07 MK2 cable and use chemicals to prove it, though.

 

 

Now, if you don't believe Silver versus Copper is audible, that's fine, I have no current reason to believe that either, but that's not the point, the point is to improve technology, which is exaclty what they have done.

post #50 of 981

The problem is typically apparent if you drive certain IEMs with an amplifier with non-zero output impedance

Example of one such IEM would be UE triple.fi 10. There, reducing %-change in the BA IEM will bring the response closer to linear and actually make the amp drive it better.  You won't get as much of a voltage divider.

UE even makes a cable like that for their IEMs. (They go as low as 5 Ohm in the highs.)

 

Alternatively, if your amplifier can't drive high impedance loads properly, you can get a lowpass with most BA IEMs, where impedance increases a lot in the high end.

 

The adapter won't do much to dynamic driver IEMs which usually have flat impedance curves, unless their impedance is so low that you're not getting enough damping due to your amps output impedance being too high.

 

If you want nice example graphs: http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1389

 

You can increase output impedance most of the time (if the amp has enough driving power), but decreasing it is a risky proposition - can cause instability.


Edited by AstralStorm - 7/8/12 at 7:04am
post #51 of 981
Thread Starter 

I'm aware of all that was just asking why the resistance in dynamic driver IEM's can dramatically change the sound?  Like Yuin OK2 versus OK1 for example.

post #52 of 981

Not dramatically at all, unless you were trying them both out of a desktop amp with non-0 impedance. 150 Ohm Yuin OK1 will be driven better using most desktop amps than 16 Ohm OK2 with the converse for portable devices.

 

Many (lousy in my opinion) desktop amps have non-neglible output impedance, therefore attaching 16 Ohm IEMs will give them a really hard time and cause typical bass control issues due to lack of damping, increase resonances...

 

Typical output impedances in desktop amps are 10 Ohms and 32 Ohms.


Edited by AstralStorm - 7/8/12 at 7:56am
post #53 of 981
Thread Starter 

Ok how about Beyerdynamic headphones then several of them come in three different impedances like 32, 250 and 600 right?  How come?

post #54 of 981

What I've heard is that the lower impedance headphones have been marketed to consumers, since they will play louder on the same volume setting. Anything louder typically sounds better. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

post #55 of 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzjin View Post

What I've heard is that the lower impedance headphones have been marketed to consumers, since they will play louder on the same volume setting. Anything louder typically sounds better. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Tyll's talked about loudness...  As you get louder, what happens is that the sound stimulates you rather than sounds better.  There is a difference.  You get stimulated by the physical energy of the sound wave rather than the actual sound itself. 

 

The rest is true though.  Lower impedance allows the headphones to be used on mobile devices a little easier and make them easier to drive. 

post #56 of 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuckinFutz View Post

Can anyone explain electrically how adding more silver to a cable can help with sibilance?


It can't (at audible frequencies, anyway) .  Silver is a better conductor than copper, but this in itself does not address frequency dependent impedance,  One must consider skin effects -- the current travels increasingly along the skin of the conductor the higher the frequency, and hence faces a greater impedance with frequency.  Effects are considered negligible until around 100 Khz, well beyond human hearing.  But even ignoring this inconvenient truth, adding silver, or reconstructing the cable so as to increase the skin depth would tend to reduce high frequency impedance -- so if sibilance is reduced, I would guess it would be through this mechanism somehow.  Personally, I'm extremely skeptical and believe this is all marketing and used the MKII opportunity to get myself another "old" GR07 at a reduced clearance price.

 

I would be interested in hearing an A/B comparison by someone owning both pairs.  I would be even more interested if it were an ABX comparision. deadhorse.gif

post #57 of 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

Tyll's talked about loudness...  As you get louder, what happens is that the sound stimulates you rather than sounds better.  There is a difference.  You get stimulated by the physical energy of the sound wave rather than the actual sound itself. 

 

Sorry, that is what I was getting at. To the untrained ear, louder will sound "better" and make the headphone more appealing. It's kind of like how Mike compared the HE-5 to the HD800; though the HE-5 had a more treble giving the impression of greater detail, the HD800 was actually much better if you listened carefully. But the typical consumer would still probably declare the HE-5 more detailed though.

post #58 of 981

Quote:

Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

The problem is typically apparent if you drive certain IEMs with an amplifier with non-zero output impedance

Example of one such IEM would be UE triple.fi 10. There, reducing %-change in the BA IEM will bring the response closer to linear and actually make the amp drive it better.  You won't get as much of a voltage divider.

.UE even makes a cable like that for their IEMs. (They go as low as 5 Ohm in the highs.)

 

Alternatively, if your amplifier can't drive high impedance loads properly, you can get a lowpass with most BA IEMs, where impedance increases a lot in the high end.

 

The adapter won't do much to dynamic driver IEMs which usually have flat impedance curves, unless their impedance is so low that you're not getting enough damping due to your amps output impedance being too high.

 

If you want nice example graphs: http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1389

 

You can increase output impedance most of the time (if the amp has enough driving power), but decreasing it is a risky proposition - can cause instability

 

Everything there is correct but not typical or necessarily significant for the argument of dynamic vs BA. The TF10 is extremely unique to drop below 1 ohm in the highs and using a 22 ohm amp designed for high impedance cans for demonstration purposes isn't real world. Most moder DAPs have below a 5 ohm output impedance. Generally 2 or lower. Notice how the 4p no longer shows the 5 ohm amp curve. That's because it would track the low impedance amp curve. Guess what would happens to a 24 ohm dynamic IEM with that output impedance. It would roll the highs more than the 4P (damoping factor mentioned) increases. Here's some curves via DFKT that show a 16 ohm dynamic. http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/16%20Ohm%20Dynamic%20-%20Samsung%20R0%2C%20Cowon%20J3%2C%20Sony%20A845%2C%20Sansa%20Clip%2B/fr.png Same thing. Just not a high enough output impedance to do as much on the highs. Rising output impedance at the top is pretty safe. Also, a lower output impedance amp tend to be more stable into severe loads. Now if we're talking multi driver units, all bets are off as some amps are just more stable driving them than others but generally something like clip with a very low output impedance will do well.


Edited by goodvibes - 7/8/12 at 3:43pm
post #59 of 981
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by tzjin View Post

What I've heard is that the lower impedance headphones have been marketed to consumers, since they will play louder on the same volume setting. Anything louder typically sounds better. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

As you get louder, what happens is that the sound stimulates you rather than sounds better. There is a difference. You get stimulated by the physical energy of the sound wave rather than the actual sound itself.

 

The rest is true though. Lower impedance allows the headphones to be used on mobile devices a little easier and make them easier to drive.

 

 

If you have two identical 16 ohm dynamic driver earbuds, add a 75 ohm resistance cable to one of them so it's 91 ohm, and volume match them, they still sound different, resistance is not just SPL, that's the sky is blue.

 

I'm just asking for a technical explanation on why they will still sound different at the same SPL.

post #60 of 981
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by BobJS View Post

 

I would be interested in hearing an A/B comparison by someone owning both pairs.  I would be even more interested if it were an ABX comparision.

 

That ABX would be invalid since there is most likely more difference between the Vsonic GR07 and the Vsonic GR07 MK2, there are also batch differences to take into account, and the theoretical application of burn-in, et cetera.

 

If you want to ABX silver cables, you should commission someone to make a pure silver cable for your Sony EX1000.

 

A cheaper experiment would be the Fostex T50RP or KRK KNS6400 since they have detachable cables, however you'll have to rewire them on the inside too.


Edited by kiteki - 7/8/12 at 4:16pm
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