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V-Moda / M-100 NON Fanboy feedback - Page 18

post #256 of 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster75 View Post

You have a refreshingly interesting perspective.  Regarding the Amperiors, I purchased, owned for two weeks, then returned.  They have a pleasant sound and I loved the blue aluminum earcups, but they lack detail, bass extension and soundstage. 

 

+1... silver cups are same wink_face.gif

post #257 of 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by OK-Guy View Post

Scrypt... I'm a little confused are you talking about the M-100 or M-80 or Sony? (no offence)

 

also don't you think any review that has anything relating to sponsorship etc would be umm err a little biased?... never shoot the goose etc

 

a sensible & respected head-fi'er recently told me when I questioned his seemingly loyalty to a certain brand (V-Moda) replied in this way, kinda... it's easy for audiophiles to find fault with products as they know the sound that they are looking for, for people who are new to the portable world this is not the case most are into image/style so you try to suggest the best option available, it may not be the SQ that we may look for but it introduces them to the world of sound and one that hopefully they'll want to pursue...

 

can't really argue with statement as I can remember my first attempts in hi-fi... my selections have got better over the years (head-fi is relatively new to me but I know the sound I want for a portable set-up, just ain't found it...  yet)

 

OK, OK-Guy:

 

Not to worry -- I don't take offense at your elliptical remarks, which seem to be pointing to specific statements and yet are not.  Likewise, I hope you won't take offense when I observe that your confusion seems directly related to your own comprehension.  In point of fact, I described what I heard WRT the M-80, mentioned Val's remarks about the M-100 and his early ideas of same (since only one person on this thread has actually heard the M100), and went on to discuss the visual aspect of V-Moda full-sized headphones in general and the M100 (which we've all seen at this point) and M80 in particular.  Beyond that, it's a tad ironic you're making a point of being confused without being clear yourself.  If you're going to respond to specific points without paraphrasing them, quoting the bit you're responding to is a good idea.

 

I'm not certain which "sponsored review" you mean -- surely not Curly's or mine -- do you perhaps mean Jude's or Joker's?  I don't think anyone here is a paid shill.  Jude might be supportive of Val and of the M80, but he's not a bought reviewer, nor is Joker simply because he received a pair for free (if he's a bought reviewer, then so is every writer who ever got to keep the object of their review).  There's bite-the-hand and then there's praise-mediocrity-insincerely.  Joker's review was tactfully positive, and found genuine things to like about the M80. And if Jude hadn't been impressed by the M80s, he wouldn't have gone out of his way to praise them. 

 

In fact, I once wrote a detailed review of an amp by a well-known manufacturer who was kind enough to send me a pre-production model to keep. I liked it and still do, but not, apparently, in the way the CEO wanted me to.  I never published the review because I was stunned that a manufacturer presumed to interfere with my conclusions.  I sent him a copy to check for accuracy, but he also wanted to delete my caveats.  That's just not done, and I'd be amazed if Val Kolton ever did anything like that.

 

I'm also not certain what you mean about the "sensible Head-fi member" who told you he was searching for sound through a more fashionable image.  I'm on the opposite end of that pole, having been a classical pianist for most of my life and a studio keyboardist for decades.  It was always about sound for me, but I've also performed quite a bit, and occasionally toured in situations in which couture was necessary, so you could call my flirtation with V-Moda symptomatic of a mid-career crisis.  Most of my other headphones are old at this point and bespeak a hoary obsession, as well as a preference for flat-to-bright response (Grado RS-1, HF-1 and Alessandro MS2i, Ety ER-4S, Beyerdynamic DT-831, UE TF-10, Shure SE425, Senn HD-580, Sony V6 (because they were used in studios where I worked for many years) -- not the most modern headphones, but, as you can tell, antithetical to the V-Moda sound.  I tend to prefer reference headphones in all their harshness in everyday life. It comes from years of having to pick out keyboard parts and arrange strastopheric string parts that don't get in the way of guitars.

 

So it's a bit difficult to understand the point of your advice:  Whether it applies to me because you've assumed I'm a novice or to the people I've mentioned who like V-Moda because you feel I might sound a tad disapproving of them.  If I do sound disapproving, I certainly don't mean to, because there's no such thing as absolute taste and, as you seem to be pointing out, we all have to start somewhere. No one should be ridiculed or dismissed because of their starting place.  

 

As I said originally, I might be interested in the Amperior a year or two from now.  I find the HD 25 respectable in its lack of affect sonically but prefer the cosmetics of the Amperior.  When its price sinks closer to that of the plastic headphone it supersedes (since headphones mass-produced for Apple are sometimes reduced drastically a year or two after their release), then and only then will I consider making the purchase.  I'm not judging it as a $300 headphone because I wouldn't buy it at that price.


Edited by scrypt - 8/19/12 at 4:24pm
post #258 of 324

I was going on the post above your original posting where the talk was of Sony, it just threw me a tad and wanted to be clear about what headphones you were on about.

 

I don't think your a novice or whatever else you presume I think of you, for one you're articulate and you scribble a good post... with regard to the M-80, nice styling, built to last & great packaging, that's as far as I'm prepared to go.

 

I've kept an eye on the M-100 threads because of a fellow head-fi'er whose post I enjoy reading... I never seen so much gushing tosh for a product that isn't out yet, I almost felt the urge to join the bandwagon and order up some white poodle-hair shields though I thought better of it as one would hate to see Val's pooch with a bald-patch... I want to believe that the M-100 will live up to the hype with a great SQ and all that, another part of me says this is just another lifestyle product that's pretty mediocre sounding, everyone now seems to be primed for fever-pitch so who am I to upset the apple cart... did I ever mention that I thought the M-80's were absolute crap sounding to my ears?

post #259 of 324

I haven't heard the M-80's before, but I did [pre]order the VTF-100's. I'm honestly not expecting to be blown away by its sound quality, but you never know. I too have been pretty skeptical of Val's claims for the M-100, and I've always thought the M-80 was way over-hyped; again I haven't heard them myself so I wouldn't know.

 

Even if the M-100 doesn't have the best of sound quality, the build quality and portability of the M-100 is a big selling point, for me. When school starts again, I commute via bus and I'm always listening and packing my headphones. As much as I love the sound quality of my analytical Shure SRH940 headphones, its "bass-light" sound signature doesn't do justice in a noisy environment, even when EQ-ed; not to mention its build quality (my adjustable headband is fractured after 11 months of use). More portable supra-aural headphones, nor in-ear earphones cut it for me either since I've found them to be quite uncomfortable from my experience.

 

I purchased my SRH940 for $250 and I think it has pretty phenomenal sound quality for its price when doing analytical/critical listening. The $300 MSRP M-100 might not have the same quality of sound, but its durability will most likely outperform that of the SRH940. After all, in my opinion, buying one $300 OK-sounding headphone that will last a while seems like a better deal than buying two or more $200+ good-sounding headphones that last about a year each, especially if money is a limiting factor.

 

Lastly, the modern styling of the M-100 is leagues beyond most headphones I've seen. You've got to admit, they are very eye-catching, especially with the custom color/plate/cable options. For many young-ish people (I'm 21), styling and looks is still a factor for headphone purchases. The SRH940 has unique styling from the other headphones in my area, but it's not exactly attractive nor eye-catching so-to-speak.

 

Just my two cents though.


Edited by miceblue - 8/19/12 at 5:32pm
post #260 of 324

In retrospect, I think certain of my remarks about the M-80s, the VTF-100s and Mr. Kolton's approach were unfair to him and even prejudiced.  It's one thing not to want to be swayed by factors other than the sound.  It's another to make assumptions about the sound of headphones I haven't heard and to connect them, however tangentially, to the music career and personal tastes of the CEO. 

 

First, I'm not privy to the range and focus of Mr. Kolton's tastes any more than I am his sets or personal playlists. Second, the idea that the personal taste of people who create headphones has anything to do with their products' sound quality is incorrect on innumerable levels.  People like to make that generalization, but it doesn't apply.

 

Besides which, many DJs began as sound engineers (Matthew Herbert, for example, who is also a skilled arranger), and sound engineers are traditionally people who get involved with headphones.  So my earlier distinction doesn't apply at all.

 

*  *  *  *  *

 

I've tended to prefer the idea of headphones created and bullet-proofed by engineers, but that is perhaps a comforting idea to a studio musician (since we want to think studio-related jobs are important), and one based on the idea that familiar = professional.  Perhaps that's a studio musician's version of the credentials needed for an exclusive country club and perhaps that kind of false stratification has no place in discussions of companies like V-Moda or, for that matter, Audeze.

 

What if we applied the same standard to musicians?  Then we'd only listen to people who were trained and never to people who taught themselves or learned from others much later -- no one would have given a chance to Khachaturian, Thelonious Monk or McCoy Tyner.  It was wrong of me to depart from discussing the sound of the M-80s alone. 

 

I also thought twice about the idea of buying headphones simply in order to try them -- not really fair when things like the shields are being customized -- that's the manufacturer offering something special and taking a loss. 

 

I did decide to try the VTF-100s, ultimately, but only because I intend not to return them unless I'm really disappointed.   Being offered something special because you're part of a community might mean actually treating other members of that community with respect, even when those people represent companies that want to sell you things.
 


Edited by scrypt - 8/28/12 at 3:26am
post #261 of 324

I remember Val mentioning that he's gathered lots of feedback, basicly walked around in different places with a 31-band EQ with him and let various people (for M100 it's both audiophiles and mainstream consumers and I think the same was the case for M80) tweak it according to how they think it sounds best. Then they've probably averaged all the results they've had to get a "golden middlepath" setting of all these lots and lots of people's settings and tried to tune the driver according to that as accurately as possible. I actually think this is a smart way of doing it, instead of letting sound engineers develop the sound of how THEY see it correct (which may also include personal tastes under some circumstances, Grados & Denons can be seen a certain kind of signature in most of the time to mention some examples), they let the CUSTOMERS be the judge, since it's averaged result based on realworld experiments, it's a safe way to ensure that it will appeal to as many people as possible.

 

I kinda see this M100 as a headphone which probably will be like a hybrid between mainstream & audiophile product. Take bass quantity as an example, if you only asked the typical teenagers on street listening to bunch of latest hip-hop and dubstep music etc you're probably gonna get them tune the bass on the EQ to maybe average 13 - 15dB boost while if you only ask a longterm audiophile which mostly listens to classical, jazz and various instrumental music etc you're probably gonna get average bass response to be maybe in the range 2 - 4dB boost. Val has hinted this headphone measured +8-9dB @ 100Hz compared to 1 - 2kHz range which in my example would fit right in-between. This is my interpretion of M100 pre-launch, bass wise the longterm audiophile seeking a neutral response will probably be slightly overhelmed with bass while the extreme basshead will probably be slightly disappointed but in both cases it won't be TOO far away from acceptable as it's right in-between those two consumer segments. But let's not forget there's ever so many more people which fits there right inbetween.

 

Continuing on the bass quantity topic as it's the most interesting one in this case, due to bassdriven electronic music has greatly exploded nowadays in popularity the demand for bassier headphones also have increased which can be seen in the market today. If today the average desired bass quantity asking a large group of people would be say maybe 8dB, 20-25 years ago it would have been maybe only 4-5dB, the type of music that people listen to and what's popular will greatly impact on what the market will offer. V-Moda seems to target "what the average people on the street want" today.

 

Anyway if following this logic and V-Moda has succeed in creating the "golden middlepath" between mainstream and audiophile sound, it should be safe to assume it will be a success


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 8/26/12 at 3:01pm
post #262 of 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post

I remember Val mentioning that he's gathered lots of feedback, basicly walked around in different places with a 31-band EQ with him and let various people (for M100 it's both audiophiles and mainstream consumers and I think the same was the case for M80) tweak it according to how they think it sounds best. Then they've probably averaged all the results they've had to get a "golden middlepath" setting of all these lots and lots of people's settings and tried to tune the driver according to that as accurately as possible. I actually think this is a smart way of doing it, instead of letting sound engineers develop the sound of how THEY see it correct (which may also include personal tastes under some circumstances, Grados & Denons can be seen a certain kind of signature in most of the time to mention some examples), they let the CUSTOMERS be the judge, since it's averaged result based on realworld experiments, it's a safe way to ensure that it will appeal to as many people as possible.

 

I kinda see this M100 as a headphone which probably will be like a hybrid between mainstream & audiophile product. Take bass quantity as an example, if you only asked the typical teenagers on street listening to bunch of latest hip-hop and dubstep music etc you're probably gonna get them tune the bass on the EQ to maybe average 13 - 15dB boost while if you only ask a longterm audiophile which mostly listens to classical, jazz and various instrumental music etc you're probably gonna get average bass response to be maybe in the range 2 - 4dB boost. Val has hinted this headphone measured +8-9dB @ 100Hz compared to 1 - 2kHz range which in my example would fit right in-between. This is my interpretion of M100 pre-launch, bass wise the longterm audiophile seeking a neutral response will probably be slightly overhelmed with bass while the extreme basshead will probably be slightly disappointed but in both cases it won't be TOO far away from acceptable as it's right in-between those two consumer segments. But let's not forget there's ever so many more people which fits there right between.

 

Continuing on the bass quantity topic as it's the most interesting one in this case, due to bassdriven electronic music has greatly exploded nowadays in popularity the demand for bassier headphones also have increased which can be seen in the market today. If today the average desired bass quantity asking a large group of people would be say maybe 8dB, 20-25 years ago it would have been maybe only 4-5dB, the type of music that people listen to and what's popular will greatly impact on what the market will offer. V-Moda seems to target "what the average people on the street want" today.

 

Anyway if following this logic and V-Moda has succeed in creating the "golden middlepath" between mainstream and audiophile sound, it should be safe to assume it will be a success


I have to commend Val and V-Moda on their collaborative approach.  When I listen to some headphones from other companies, I can't help but think an engineering team sat in a windowless room, subjectively developed a headphone that THEY felt was phenomenal and said, "Here's what we came up with, enjoy!".  I seriously doubt that is actually the case, but with some headphones, I think about the $ at stake based on their sound and wonder what they were thinking.  IMO, just as the M-80 took the perception of V-Moda to another level, I would imagine the next level beyond that (world domination of headphone market share) may be Val's goal with the M-100.  There is much at stake for the future which I imagine is why it is taking so long for these to ship.  After all, if the M-80 wasn't a solid performer, no one would be excited about the M-100.  I believe Val will get the EQ right on the money because of his collaborative approach.  What I am really anxious to hear now is the level of detail and how resolving a $300 headphone can be, which hasn't been discussed as much as the expected EQ.


Edited by Craigster75 - 8/26/12 at 3:17pm
post #263 of 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post

...

 

Continuing on the bass quantity topic as it's the most interesting one in this case, due to bassdriven electronic music has greatly exploded nowadays in popularity the demand for bassier headphones also have increased which can be seen in the market today. If today the average desired bass quantity asking a large group of people would be say maybe 8dB, 20-25 years ago it would have been maybe only 4-5dB, the type of music that people listen to and what's popular will greatly impact on what the market will offer. V-Moda seems to target "what the average people on the street want" today.

 

Anyway if following this logic and V-Moda has succeed in creating the "golden middlepath" between mainstream and audiophile sound, it should be safe to assume it will be a success

I agree with your first 2 paragraphs. Your third paragraph, to me on the other hand, seemed to imply that Val is making products for the average consumer, or non-audiophile.

 

I would like to think the M-100 is what you described in your first 2 paragraphs; a stepping stone between the everyday consumer and the entry level audiophile, just as FiiO's products are.

post #264 of 324

I think the danger lies in generalizing about either approach:  That of sound-engineer purism or that of a person with a different background and perspective (such as Mr. Kolton's, with his professional DJ bookings, his cadre of professionals in the disciplines he's exploring and perfecting and, as he recently mentioned, his extensive programming background).  It seems to me that Mr. Kolton's method involves a great deal of empirical observation (his own and that of the listeners he consults), and that that's where headphone enthusiasts connect with him.

 

Other companies survey potential listeners and look for perspective as well.  We just don't hear about those surveys in ongoing threads on Head-fi.  Mr. Kolton's way of conducting those surveys is new, and he might well end up with a new kind of sound as a result of that consensus, but I think he's still trying to achieve that.  People who like the sound of the M-80s wouldn't necessarily call that a new sound, and people who call the sound of the LPs new don't necessarily like it.  Let's see what he does with the Veni and Revolver.

 

It seems unwise to try to make unfavorable comparisons between headphones like the DT-1350s or DT-880s and the M-80s or (theoretical) M-100s.  That's what you're effectively doing when you suggest that engineering purism fails where V-Moda's methods succeed (theoretically).  A better argument might be that they succeed at different ideals. 

 

Right now, I'm having a difficult time not seeing the constructions bass-heavy and non-fanboy as mutually exclusive.  I can see using "mobile audiophile" to describe people who want detailed headphones with a slight bass emphasis, especially given the conditions in which people listen to mobile devices.  But I can't see applying such a label to headphones which distort or misrepresent the entire spectrum, which was the problem with LPs.

 

Then again, I disagree with the idea of "non-fanboys," since you can't be objective (i.e., "non") if you're busy reacting to fans.  Maybe the word is critical (in the non-pejorative sense) or unbiased.

 

The late writer Ralph Wiley said that everyone who grows up in the same culture is prejudiced because they all see the same ads, stereotypes, symbols of normalcy and political salvos writ large. 

 

The way out is to be able to examine your own beliefs and biases without having to justify them as correct.  That's what I've tried to do here.


Edited by scrypt - 8/28/12 at 3:31am
post #265 of 324
I really hope the bass is somewhere near the lp series and not as boring as the m80 please Val make these somewhat fun to listen to
post #266 of 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos4996 View Post

I really hope the bass is somewhere near the lp series and not as boring as the m80 please Val make these somewhat fun to listen to

It's closer, but obviously not quite as much.  There's pretty much enough here for most people, and if you listen to it for a little while, you'll probably get used to the slightly lower bass levels.

post #267 of 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos4996 View Post

I really hope the bass is somewhere near the lp series and not as boring as the m80 please Val make these somewhat fun to listen to

 

Why duplicate the LP/LP2? They already exist and I don't see the need for a more expensive headphone with the same sound signature (which would probably not fit my taste I have to add). If the LP/LP2 fits your taste -- why not save 100$ and go with them?

post #268 of 324

I have posted a few times trying to get a sense of the differences in sound between the M-100 and other phones I'm looking at-- mostly in the Beyer 770/880/990/COP family.  Anyone who has heard these along with the M-100 care to comment?

post #269 of 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by automaton View Post

I have posted a few times trying to get a sense of the differences in sound between the M-100 and other phones I'm looking at-- mostly in the Beyer 770/880/990/COP family.  Anyone who has heard these along with the M-100 care to comment?


Generally speaking, the Beyers have brighter (to my ears harsher) highs.  M-100 highs are extended as well, but smooth with no sibilance.  I also prefer M-100 bass and mids.

post #270 of 324

Thanks.  So, price aside, would you rank the overall SQ of the M-100 above that of the Beyers I listed?  Any areas where the Beyers have a better sound?  Will be using them for mostly electronic music.  I might just wait until the M-100 become available on Amazon, order them and do an A/B myself.  But I'm also getting impatient to make this purchase, and the COP are at $150 right now.
 

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