Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › USB cable and Sound Quality
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

USB cable and Sound Quality - Page 30  

post #436 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

It also isn't fair to demand that I must disprove your wildly nonsensical claim that USB cables affect sound quality. You are making the extraordinary claim, so you provide the evidence. This is how it works.

^This.^ Always, no exceptions.
post #437 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

 

I reposted liamstrain's point. Why would I make an argument when someone's already made it for me? Having a correct understanding of digital audio is not a viewpoint. We aren't discussing politics, we are discussing fact based science.

 

So let me get this straight, you questioned my credentials, when you yourself have none? That is hypocritical.

It also isn't fair to demand that I must disprove your wildly nonsensical claim that USB cables affect sound quality. You are making the extraordinary claim, so you provide the evidence. This is how it works.

 

I am not a grammar nazi, unless someone tries to sound intellectual with fancy sounding ostentatious concepts like "binary dualism" that actually don't make any sense. I also don't like it when people use sarcasm instead of making their point directly, which is what you did in your first response.

 

What do you expect honestly, that this thread stays inactive until someone does a DBT, and that nobody should discuss anything until this takes place?  

 

Why do I question your credeitials, well actually that is a good question, as you were not actually making an argument so much as commenting on someone else's argument and suggesting that it should somehow conclusively demostrate that USB cables do not affect audio and that anyone that thinks  they do are wrong.  Sorry but to me this statement has a tone of authority certainty to it, and without a supporting argument I am left wondering what has led you to this conclusion certainty.

 

I am confused as to which particular argument about USB cables making an audible difference you are referring.  If you want a theory I have concocted about how USB cables might affect audio I can offer one, and my most recent posts have been a dialog with another member who thinks ferrite beads have an audible effect on his USB interface/DAC.  I have a feeling that this is of no interest to you so I will spare you the trouble of reading my ideas.

 

I'm sorry if "binary dualism" sounded ostentatios and fell short gramatically - my original post was more direct but less polite.  I even considered posting nothing but I couldn't resist.  My understanding is that whether or not a claim is outlandish, experimentation is equally necessary to prove or disprove the claim, and if you are arguing against the claim on a theoretical basis, then a concise theoretical argument is needed with calculations, figures, specifics, case studies etc.

 

Again telling someone they are wrong off the cuff is not an effective way of convincing them of your point of view, it is however a very effective way of creating offense.  If a claim is "wildly nonsensical" and you wish to make this point, you must follow this up and demonstrate why this claim is wildly nonsensical.  I thought we were discussing fact based science - that works both ways.


Edited by drez - 9/20/12 at 12:55am
post #438 of 783

USB-cables DO NOT carry music !

They are used to move zeros and ones ..

Either the zeros and ones are there, or they are not .

A cable can not magically change anything, it does not make the zeros and ones sound 'warmer' 'better' or anything else .

 

 

 

Quote:
Again telling someone they are wrong off the cuff is not an effective way of convincing them of your point of view

 

You can cook up all the theories you want, there is NO factual evidence to support the claim that a non-defective USB-cable

affects anything . And it IS up to you to provide evidence for your theory .

This is not about OPINION, it is FACT !


Edited by AKG240mkII - 9/20/12 at 1:33am
post #439 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKG240mkII View Post

USB-cables DO NOT carry music !

They are used to move zeros and ones ..

Either the zeros and ones are there, or they are not .

A cable can not magically change anything, it does not make the zeros and ones sound 'warmer' 'better' or anything else .

 

 

 

 

You can cook up all the theories you want, there is NO factual evidence to support the claim that a non-defective USB-cable

affects anything . And it IS up to you to provide evidence for your theory .

This is not about OPINION, it is FACT !

 

A fact requires evidence where is your evidence?  I have made no statement of fact, please quote where I have said that USB cables affect sound quality.

 

If you want to say an idea is unproven and unsupported by electrical engineering/science theory, then you do not have to provide evidence, but may be required to specify which parts of electrical theory you find to suggest that USB cables cannot affect sound quality.  The argument you have offered above is an oversimplification of how USB audio works and the performance factors involved.  

 

If you want to say the theory is wrong. as in not possible, then you need to provide evidence.  Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

 

if a scientist wants to say that shark cartilage cannot improve arthritis, he has to conduct experiments.  before his experiments, he can say that "there is no evidence that shark cartilage can improve arthritis" and even after the experiment he can say that there is no evidence and that there is a strong indication that the shark cartilage is not effective.  Bottom line is that before providing your own evidence you cannot declare that something is impossible, you can only say there is no experimental evidence or support in theory.  If you are solely basing your argument on theory, it might be helpful to outline how scientific theory does not support the idea you disagree with.

 

If some of these posts were answers to a science exam I'm pretty sure they would get an F.  If we are trying to discuss things in a scientific manner, then fine, be my guest and post acceptably scientific arguments.

 

It really seems like we are arguing about completely different things here...


Edited by drez - 9/20/12 at 2:42am
post #440 of 783

@drez:

As such, it will be hard if everyone wishes to re-prove a theory, or an accepted standard. It takes a lot of effort and testing to prove and establish standards, so when it comes to USB standards, you can pretty much take them for proof, *after* understanding how USB Audio is implemented.

 

From the USB specification, the three types of Isochronous transfer (Synchronous, Adaptive and Asynchronous) have different levels of immunity to jitter, with Synchronous being least immune, to Asynchronous that uses separate clocks on the host and ADC (The device needs to maintain a buffer of packets to compensate for any host jitter, but once buffered, the internal clock is used by ADC, hence no jitter)

 

That said, a USB cable is not mentioned anywhere in the USB Audio standard, and will work as specified by the standard as long as it meets the USB requirements.

 

If you choose a jitter prone transfer method (Synchronous), too bad. Even a 1 million dollar cable cannot save you.

 

Finally, jitter or no jitter, the end result is not correlated to the cable cost or metal purity, as long as the cable meets the electrical requirements. The USB standard transfers data. Once the data is pushed from host to device, reliably, there's nothing more a cable can do. And USB guarantees the data will be transferred reliably if you meet their standard.

 

Now please don't ask me to conduct a study with all the cables in the name of *evidence*. 

 

Even after all this, I still cannot fathom how the analog reproduction of sound can have anything to do with the USB cable.


Edited by proton007 - 9/20/12 at 2:51am
post #441 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

@drez:

As such, it will be hard if everyone wishes to re-prove a theory, or an accepted standard. It takes a lot of effort and testing to prove and establish standards, so when it comes to USB standards, you can pretty much take them for proof, *after* understanding how USB Audio is implemented.

 

From the USB specification, the three types of Isochronous transfer (Synchronous, Adaptive and Asynchronous) have different levels of immunity to jitter, with Synchronous being least immune, to Asynchronous that uses separate clocks on the host and ADC (hence no jitter). 

 

That said, a USB cable is not mentioned anywhere in the USB Audio standard, and will work as specified by the standard as long as it meets the USB requirements.

 

If you choose a jitter prone transfer method (Synchronous), too bad. Even a 1 million dollar cable cannot save you.

 

Finally, jitter or no jitter, the end result is not correlated to the cable cost or metal purity, as long as the cable meets the electrical requirements. The USB standard transfers data. Once the data is pushed from host to device, reliably, there's nothing more a cable can do.

 

Now please don't ask me to conduct a study with all the cables in the name of *evidence*.

 

Interesting argument, but is this a matter of working or not working, or jitter immunity or lack thereof.  USB itself was developed as a low cost solution, Firewire on the other hand was designed for best performance with timing sensitive devices.  This said I have no idea how you could improve on the reference design offered in the USB specification, as you say the standard was developed specifically to work with the USB interface, and similarly I can't see any reason why the type of metal used for the conductor would be a significant influence save for silver having lower resistance than copper.  If asynchronous transfer is jitter immune I can't explain some of the experiences I have had with different asynchronous devices and drivers, USB controllers etc. other than writing them off as placebo, which I strongly consider not to be the case.  The only convincing difference in USB cables I have heard was between an extremely short USB cable and one of standard length - I do not consider USB cables of similar length to make a significant difference such that I can I am 100% sure there is a difference passable in a blind test.  I have also not been intensively comparing USB cables lately, I just listen to my music and try and enjoy the experience. 


Edited by drez - 9/20/12 at 3:13am
post #442 of 783

I think mostly it is a matter of working or not working.

post #443 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by drez View Post

my beef is not with challenges to any particular theory someone may have but to general and inflammatory attempts to make universal declarations that something is right or wrong,

Making a declarative statement without equivocation about a subject one is very familiar with is NOT inflammatory. If you can't abide people who speak in a forthright manner, internet forums are not for you. When you react to someone who has made an informed forthright statement by threatening to bring the mods in to shut down the thread because you are offended, you're the one who is fanning the flames. If you really want a civil discussion, the best way to encourage that is to lead by example.
post #444 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by drez View Post

 

 If asynchronous transfer is jitter immune I can't explain some of the experiences I have had with different asynchronous devices and drivers, USB controllers etc. other than writing them off as placebo, which I strongly consider not to be the case.  

 

So given this ^^ vs the USB standard, what do you think I'll trust more when it comes to the cable argument?

 

And the standard works well for what is required of it. In any case, the usb-cable-to-sound causation has been debunked.

post #445 of 783

I'm on Drez's side, I trust my ears and have found different USB cables to sound... differently. I'm sure that they all conform to USB standards.

post #446 of 783
Well if you have usb cables that sound dramatically different, you should find someone to test them and find out exactly how much and why. You're sitting on a major technological exception to general knowledge.
post #447 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by grokit View Post

I'm on Drez's side, I trust my ears and have found different USB cables to sound... differently. I'm sure that they all conform to USB standards.

 

You should definitively trust your ears... but those differences might have been headphone positional variations, too much scotch, or something else...

post #448 of 783

""the life is in the blood"".....the listening  popcorn.gif

post #449 of 783
Alcohol is in my blood!
post #450 of 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrabike View Post

 

You should definitively trust your ears... but those differences might have been headphone positional variations, too much scotch, or something else...

 

On a side note.

 

A couple of days ago, I overclocked my PC processor to 4.4GHz. I use linux, when I booted after changing the settings, it was like, OMG...everything is faster......I'm in overclock nirvana....until I checked the cpu speed. 

The damn thing was running at 1.6GHz (on demand frequency scaling) and 1.6GHz is the lowest that CPU will run at. Until I changed it to performance (max speed, 4.4 GHz), at which point the difference was miniscule, if any, and my excitement had worn off.

 

Point being, the default speed was good enough. Same goes for cables.

 

Now I can say I trust my eyes and OMG I saw it!! Everything was fast. In reality it wasnt.


Edited by proton007 - 9/20/12 at 8:23pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Sound Science
This thread is locked  
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › USB cable and Sound Quality